rick137, based on what I was told while testing at the Lapua facility in Ohio, Lapua makes a batch, then does all testing after the batch is made, and grades the ammo to the X-Act, Midas+ and LCX grades. Actual rifle shooting is part of the testing as well to help determine that the ammo should be assigned.
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Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
No criticism implied - was just trying to help
If you are referring to the picture in post 5043 ? i cant see how close the sensor is to the flight path. My experience is that you want to try and get it to be only a few mm ( max 1/8th" ? ) from the bullet flight path.
I shot two lot numbers of cx, 15 shots each and got es of 33 & 37, sd’s were 8.4 & 10.1 at 1087 & 1093 fps with magneto speed.Took out the MagnetoSpeed, since I own one
18" barrel. 72* F, 25.0in HG, 26% Humidity
Series 1. 8 shots.
Min 1073, Max 1108
Avg. 1090, SD 12.1 ES 35
Series 2. 10 shots.
Min 1067, Max 1106
Avg. 1081, SD 11.8, ES 39
Series 3. 10 shots.
Min 1069, Max 1115
Avg. 1087, SD 13.9, ES 46
Series 4. 70 shots.
Min 1073, Max 1115
Avg. 1090, SD 8.9, ES 42
Bullets and turrets agree w/ speeds registered. 1.8 MIL at 100 yards w/ 25 yard zero.
Running on the ragged edge of supersonic. Little disappointed in ES. Easily 1.5" vertical dispersion possible at 100 yards due to spread.
Are the ES consistent with other's are getting w/ Center X?
cci sv was es 44 at 1102 fps
No criticism implied - was just trying to help
None taken. I'm completely open to more information that helps me understand better.
That is a good 15% improvement though, so it's not that identical. 8.4 vs 10.1 SD and about .5" less size group at 200 yards.
The cx that i used was the best 2 lots that lapua tested in my gun. I’d guess that could explain the small difference. I run my mag speed about 1/4” from bottom of bullet. Also if you are useing a tapered barrel, they have slightly V shaped spacers for that. But it seems like you have yours set plenty good to me.
I have read a few of the post above and elsewhere in this forum and have to ask a few questions regarding accuracy, velocity and standard deviation. Someone please educate me. First question is, what exactly are you (anyone) trying to accomplish when you use your chronograph?
Ok, so that's what FGMM means. I don't use the app and I thought FGMM had something to do with Vudoo.
To get accurate speeds to enter in your ballistics calculator. And to see what the deviations are and to what extent. If you aim at the exact same point every time, in theory, you'll hit the exact same spot. IF your speeds vary, the bullet will impact low, high or on target depending on the actual speed of the bullet sent. Slower bullets hit lower, faster bullets hit higher. 50 fps can be up to ⅓" difference at 100 yards. As your distances increase, so does the spread.
Speed really doesn’t matter with Rimfire that much. Especially if you have a DSF truing function.
Just like a centerfire, once we go subsonic, MV isn’t the best choice to true data. Since we are never supersonic with current Rimfire ammo (no current supersonic ammo worth messing with), we are immediately in that area instead of 1300 yds with a lot of 6mm.
I have never put a chronograph on my current vudoo. I don’t even know if I‘ve adjusted the BC. Mainly all DSF.
When dealing with Rimfire, we really need to be looking into ELR type shooting techniques as that’s the area we are in being subsonic.
What's the best way to true my Strelok? I just inputed the MV speed into the calculator and the dials agree. Do I need to be looking at BCs instead? I'm I truing it wrong?
With StrelokPro, you’ll probably need to do it the way you’re doing it.
I’ll check to see if there is a better way.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Distance is 100 yards. Same ammo different lot numbers. Shooting is ten 5-round groups over your chronograph and you record every shot. At the end of the day Ammo A has an SD of 8 and the ten group average is 1- 11/16" or 1.687".
Ammo B has a SD of 50 and the ten group average is exactly 1". Which ammo would you shoot in a match?
I can say with certainty that SD cannot be correlated to accuracy, good or bad. At least that's been my personal experience. That's one reason I don't use my chrony as much as I used to. Now I just use it out of curiously for which barrel length is faster or just how fast is a CCI Stinger to how slow is a 22 short.
When I shoot at my lowly 55 yard range I have had ammo record the same velocity back to back but the two rounds are .5" apart. Just the opposite has happened, I get one round at 987, the next at 1024 and they are touching? I can't help but believe there is a lot more variables affecting rimfire accuracy than speed, SD, extreme spread and other.
Even when you get past 100 yards and you are concerned about bullet drop, the conditions/weather has a larger impact on accuracy than how fast the ammo is or how small the SD or the MV.
I understand some of you are trying to gather data for your gadgets but for me, I would dial in my distance, record the settings or holdover for that distance and use my rangefinder to determine distance. Is my logic flawed? What am I missing?
I'm just trying to get educated.
Ammo B has a SD of 50 and the ten group average is exactly 1". Which ammo would you shoot in a match?
I can say with certainty that SD cannot be correlated to accuracy, good or bad. At least that's been my personal experience. That's one reason I don't use my chrony as much as I used to. Now I just use it out of curiously for which barrel length is faster or just how fast is a CCI Stinger to how slow is a 22 short.
When I shoot at my lowly 55 yard range I have had ammo record the same velocity back to back but the two rounds are .5" apart. Just the opposite has happened, I get one round at 987, the next at 1024 and they are touching? I can't help but believe there is a lot more variables affecting rimfire accuracy than speed, SD, extreme spread and other.
Even when you get past 100 yards and you are concerned about bullet drop, the conditions/weather has a larger impact on accuracy than how fast the ammo is or how small the SD or the MV.
I understand some of you are trying to gather data for your gadgets but for me, I would dial in my distance, record the settings or holdover for that distance and use my rangefinder to determine distance. Is my logic flawed? What am I missing?
I'm just trying to get educated.
I think if your rifle is vised in a wind tunnel then there's no shooter or environmental input, then group size is pretty absolute measure. When I did my 6x5's, and then later I got a magnetospeed to chrono, the chono's SD and ES actually proved to accurately match my 6x5's.
My Pistol Match Special, had the smallest average 6x5, and it had an SD of 7. My SK+ had an SD of like 9. And my Center-X had an SD of 10. Now the ES wise, the ES on my SK+ had the highest, so I'd get groups that would be tiny, .5" and then one group due to a high velocity round hit .7" high, and that group would be 1.1". With Center-X, ES was smaller and all groups ended up being very close to .7". For matches that really matter I just want consistency, no random flyers, so I would shoot CX if I really cared. If I didn't care, then SK+ would mean I would hit generally 14/15 shots due to 1 flyer every 10-20 rounds.
If you could see all your hits and have the chrono running you can see effects of shot vs speed. I did that for a few groups and it was pretty cool. My SK+ had 4 shots 1019fps and all within .2" of each other vertically. One shot was 1035, and flew high 3/4"
Some of this is correct. Some is not.
I’ll have to crunch the numbers on where the distance is. But there is a distance where certain ES will absolutely matter.
You can’t get around physics. If you have a 40 ES, depending on the target size, when a round comes out either faster or slower than average at the upper end of that ES, you will absolutely miss high or low depending.
It’s pretty easy to figure. Take you distance and target size. Then mess with your velocity in your calculator until you are high enough or low enough to miss the target.
That is the ES for that distance and target size that is acceptable and what is not.
That is the ES for that distance and target size that is acceptable and what is not.
Which would be what? Legit question so I can rethink whatever is deemed to be wrong.
littlepod, I guess we have had different experiences.
Jefe's Dope, I agree with your thoughts.
Here is another way I look at it. If ammo A is the most accurate ammo I have at 55 yards it should also be the most accurate at any other distance. That's just logic 101. To say otherwise someone would be saying the bullet somehow curves back in. If a car's steering is out of alignment and you let go of the steering wheel the car steers one way or another, and just keeps going in that direction; it doesn't miraculously come back to the center.
Having said this, when I determine the most accurate round I'd buy a case of it and then start testing for point of impact change at different yardage. I would record in 25 yard increments and write down my scope elevation adjustments or holdover. In my case on my property in VA I have 300 yards I can get and will get when the time permits. I believe all the chrony testing in the world will never trump actual point of impact.
But, again, which would be what? Legit question so I can rethink whatever is deemed to be wrong. Also, I'm not trying to be a dickhead about this, we just have different ways of thinking and I always like to see others point of view.
The part about SD not going hand in hand with accuracy is wrong.
At closer distances, yes. But the further out, the larger the SD/ES, the less top end accuracy you can achieve.
Same as a centerfire, I can shoot small groups at 100. But if the ES is junk, the groups will not hold out to distance.
Maybe apples to oranges but I have a 10/22 that sits on top the 25 yd games at RFC with a 5x4 in the mid .0s with wolf ME. Now one (me) would tend to think this would be my most accurate ammo at 100 yds but it's not. It actually sucks, big-time. Now cx is not the most accurate ammo out of the remaining ammo I have tried at 25 but groups the best at 100. I attribute that to the cx maintaining stability more consistently from 25-100 yds. Less chance for the bullet to stray
10-4. When I get to spend some time at my property in VA I can stretch 300 yards but easily get 200. I will test this at longer distances. Right now I'm limited at 55 yards.
I can't help but think that whatever is most accurate at 100 yards for you should be even more accurate at closer distances. But 25 yards is pretty close so all good ammo might not have had time to separate themselves. That's why I want to test at longer ranges but can't do it here in SC.
Once you reaching 200y or beyond your es/sd can ONLY help your accuracy so much..i think were expecting to much from our v22(thats a good thing!)
This is not your accurate center..its your accurate RIM..
Pushing her 200y?
Shooters error/skills
Temp and wind (gust)
Will affect that bitty pills more than your (low) SD helping..
But why would you beleive a hawaiian who doesnt even have a public range
Just my .02
This is not your accurate center..its your accurate RIM..
Pushing her 200y?
Shooters error/skills
Temp and wind (gust)
Will affect that bitty pills more than your (low) SD helping..
But why would you beleive a hawaiian who doesnt even have a public range
Just my .02
Finally finished my proper lefty Vudoo setup thanks to the awesome people at VGW!
Once you reaching 200y or beyond your es/sd can ONLY help your accuracy so much..i think were expecting to much from our v22(thats a good thing!)
This is not your accurate center..its your accurate RIM..
Pushing her 200y?
Shooters error/skills
Temp and wind (gust)
Will affect that bitty pills more than your (low) SD helping..
But why would you beleive a hawaiian who doesnt even have a public range
Just my .02
You can be the best shooter in the world, but if your ES is high and a particular round comes out the barrel on one end or the other of that ES......nothing you can do will put that round where you want it.
This is why David Tubb shoots with a chronograph attached to his Tubb Rifle at most all times. When he misses, he can look at the velocity data for that individual round. If it’s outside the given parameters for that particular target size and distance, he knows to ignore what he just saw as it’s not related to something he influenced as the shooter.
Let’s say you are shooting a 6cm at 1k yds at a 1moa target. Your average velocity is 3k fps. And your ES is 50 (not uncommon for factory ammo).
You take a shot and you see the round go just barely over the top of the target. You don’t have a chrono telling you if that round just came out of the barrel at 3025fps.
So, how do you know if you made an error such as breaking at the wrong point in the breathing cycle, or if you did everything perfect and you just got bit by ES?
Rimfire works exactly like this as well.
R99:
Thanks for the intel. Most interesting. One presumes SD and ES would be prominent test statistics to determine the "quality" of the lot. Was there any mention of the number of rounds in a lot?
Rick
Once again I will tilt at windmills. There is a fundamental difference between accuracy and precision. Precision is the "tightness" of the group without regard to the location of the group center with respect to the aim point. Accuracy, as presently defined, requires precision but also a group center that is close to the aim point. Thus the relative importance of SD and ES depends whether your goal is precision groups, measured by such as the maximum CTC distance in a group or accurate groups, such as in score shooting.
Disregarding deleterious environmental effects and marksmanship, there are three ammunition factors in play, muzzle velocity, the horizontal and vertical flexural barrel harmonics and bullet imbalance. Many factors contribute to determining the flexural barrel harmonics. One of them has to be the interaction between the ammunition and the rest of the weapon system. However, the muzzle velocity is probably independent of the flexural barrel harmonics or only weakly so. Similarly for bullet imbalance. Thus there are three independent causes of imprecision and inaccuracy.
However, there is only the geometry of the bullet holes as the dependent variable and SD/ES of the ammunition that created the group as independent variables. Basically more factors are in play than data to determine the relative importance of the factors. An underdetermined problem in math speak. But one can always construct models of the real situation by making assumptions, such as bullet imbalance is unimportant and barrel vibrations are constant statistically speaking. Then, for certain, the precision of a group is determined by the ES. But the score of a group could be determined by the SD, for example nine shots in the X ring and one in the 5 ring.
Disregarding deleterious environmental effects and marksmanship, there are three ammunition factors in play, muzzle velocity, the horizontal and vertical flexural barrel harmonics and bullet imbalance. Many factors contribute to determining the flexural barrel harmonics. One of them has to be the interaction between the ammunition and the rest of the weapon system. However, the muzzle velocity is probably independent of the flexural barrel harmonics or only weakly so. Similarly for bullet imbalance. Thus there are three independent causes of imprecision and inaccuracy.
However, there is only the geometry of the bullet holes as the dependent variable and SD/ES of the ammunition that created the group as independent variables. Basically more factors are in play than data to determine the relative importance of the factors. An underdetermined problem in math speak. But one can always construct models of the real situation by making assumptions, such as bullet imbalance is unimportant and barrel vibrations are constant statistically speaking. Then, for certain, the precision of a group is determined by the ES. But the score of a group could be determined by the SD, for example nine shots in the X ring and one in the 5 ring.
Question regarding cleaning... the Vudoo bore guide states it will accept rods up to .187 diameter. I have a ProShot 20 cal rod, which is exactly .187 diameter. Is that perfect then, or should I get a rod slightly smaller?
They use the MTX rod with a diameter of .160. I was just curious if I should buy a new rod or if my .187 rod is suitable.
Basically generic question - should my rod be smaller than the bore guide, or is an exact fit okay?
They use the MTX rod with a diameter of .160. I was just curious if I should buy a new rod or if my .187 rod is suitable.
Basically generic question - should my rod be smaller than the bore guide, or is an exact fit okay?
Do you guys just mildly clean when accuracy starts to fall off or what? My plan of attack for cleaning is running a patch worm with wet patches soaked in rem oil and then dry patches until no more black shit comes out.
When accuracy falls off. I generally super clean it, and then re-season it. Different schools of thought though... some people say never clean the 22 barrel and only clean the chamber (length of the round) to get rid of the carbon ring/fouling at the chamber. To do that I take a larger patch, soak it in Boretech rimfire cleaner, and let it sit in the chamber for 30-40min. Then I take a 22 brush and scrub only the 1" of the chamber to get rid of the carbon ring and wax/lube build up. Then I just push some dry patches through.
If I do a full clean... I push in 3 wet patches of Boretech Rimfire cleaner, and let it sit for 30min. Then I'll come back and dry patch it till it's clean.
Yes. Though I asked a smith and said it shouldn't matter as brass bruss isn't going to scratch your barrel.
That's correct. The only time I use a nylon brush it when I want/need to change directions with the brush still inside the barrel. My common use would be to try and remove a very light carbon ring. Most of the time it doesn't work anyway and I get the JB with felt cleaners out.
Got my silencer today. Top left and right 3 are without silencer, left except very top one are with silencer. I hate it but it looks like silencer is going back in box.Cuzz, .....go shoot something.
Also does anybody know why my pics turn 90 degrees?
Here’s the HUGE problem with waiting for accuracy to fall off before you clean:
The accuracy falls off. And you don’t know when. If you only plink for fun, who cares. If you shoot matches or have money tied up in hunting, you’re asking for trouble.
Do you wait until your car breaks down to change the oil? Why treat your rifle the same??
The other big problem;
It’s not always the accuracy that falls off. For example, I basically wasted $500+ on the Rifles Only brawl this year because I didn’t clean at regularly scheduled maintenance. The rifle shot fine. Made first round impacts on a stage at 1k, 9, 8, 7 in high winds with 10 or 12” plates. Accuracy never fell off.
By the 4th stage bolt lift was sticky. By next day I was beating the bolt open and had lost so many points from that + the beating open, I stopped shooting with 3 stages left.
Between diagnosing with different methods and eventually a bore scope, the problem was a carbon ring so bad that it had turned my .020” jump into a jam. See the pic below.
So, wait for a problem to start (accuracy degradation is a problem) before you clean and see what happens to you.
The accuracy falls off. And you don’t know when. If you only plink for fun, who cares. If you shoot matches or have money tied up in hunting, you’re asking for trouble.
Do you wait until your car breaks down to change the oil? Why treat your rifle the same??
The other big problem;
It’s not always the accuracy that falls off. For example, I basically wasted $500+ on the Rifles Only brawl this year because I didn’t clean at regularly scheduled maintenance. The rifle shot fine. Made first round impacts on a stage at 1k, 9, 8, 7 in high winds with 10 or 12” plates. Accuracy never fell off.
By the 4th stage bolt lift was sticky. By next day I was beating the bolt open and had lost so many points from that + the beating open, I stopped shooting with 3 stages left.
Between diagnosing with different methods and eventually a bore scope, the problem was a carbon ring so bad that it had turned my .020” jump into a jam. See the pic below.
So, wait for a problem to start (accuracy degradation is a problem) before you clean and see what happens to you.
There is a bug in the forum software (or lack of a feature) where it doesn’t recognize the orientation of some photos and just always puts them in landscape format. This happens with my iPhone. It will probably stick around a while just like the bug causing it to display half the image on mobile browsers.
i have two savage - bartlein 6.5’s that omega 300 seem to help, certianly don’t hurt. Yester day was first time i tried it on 22, i’m not giving up yet. The 22 is very quiet.
I have deleted the pic, taken it again with iphone turned 90 degrees and that fixed it.
Stuff is starting to arrive...hopefully the V-22 is at the FFL tonight.
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I have the MDT with a 22" barrel and the 18" would not even come close to the end of the chassis
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