OMG I just read about the 50 muller Barrels....Damn DrKnite there are the barrels you wanted LOL! I have 2 on order with paul right now, please tell me I won't have to buy 50 to get 3 or 4 to shoot.
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OMG I just read about the 50 muller Barrels....Damn DrKnite there are the barrels you wanted LOL! I have 2 on order with paul right now, please tell me I won't have to buy 50 to get 3 or 4 to shoot.
Now this is how internet lore gets going.
Jerry's referenced 50 barrels, nowhere did he say 50 Muller barrels, let's be careful, I'm pretty sure Stiller does n't need the villagers showing up with burning torches.
They weren't all Mullers and of them they were multiple types, 4, 7 and 8 groove. There were equal numbers of Shilens, both ratchetts and octagons. In addition, some of them were and are still experimental. Muller and I work together on lots of ideas. I wish all of them turned out like I "knew" they would at the time.OMG I just read about the 50 muller Barrels....Damn DrKnite there are the barrels you wanted LOL! I have 2 on order with paul right now, please tell me I won't have to buy 50 to get 3 or 4 to shoot.
Yes. For sure. As the wind blows harder the less accurate guns gain on the better ones. Using good flags is a must. You will also find some guns and ammo take less hold. In most of Texas, shooting is a huge part of the puzzle.Is doping the wind the main component of marksmanship in benchrest shooting? After reading the posts in this thread my impression is no amount of marksmanship will prevail in benchrest competition if you are shooting only a "good but not great" weapon system unless hurricane conditions prevail. Not that creating a great weapon system is trivial, just the opposite, and something only a few can do.
Hey Jerry,3, Ivans rest: I don't have guns that will work in nor do I use it. Not sure where you got that impression. All the guns I build will work in a conventional rest and I only use my PQP joystick rest that is sold by Killough. Landy has at least a few guns, the ones I built him will not work in an Ivan rest. As far as I know, only Ivan's guns will work in Ivan's rests. Ivan seems to be on a quest to build guns and be a supplier. I am sure he will put up contact information if he wants to sell stuff.
In this neck of the woods we shoot outside( the way God intended ) and usually in conditions, sometimes horrid.Is doping the wind the main component of marksmanship in benchrest shooting? After reading the posts in this thread my impression is no amount of marksmanship will prevail in benchrest competition if you are shooting only a "good but not great" weapon system unless hurricane conditions prevail. Not that creating a great weapon system is trivial, just the opposite, and something only a few can do.
A gently blowing wind will get the SH villagers stirred up. Anything more, it's a lynch mob. Ask me how I know?I'm sure Mark is just messin' around but I can tell you, it takes far less to get the villagers astir....SH on the other hand, isn't so sensitive....
MB
I would agree 100 percentIn this neck of the woods we shoot outside( the way God intended ) and usually in conditions, sometimes horrid.
I have shot with a lot of very good shooters over the years In several states and I would bet every time on the great shooter with a good gun vs a fair shooter with a great gun. Zero substitute for a skill set which can be learned. Problem is lots of guys work hard practicing bad habits.
A gently blowing wind will get the SH villagers stirred up. Anything more, it's a lynch mob. Ask me how I know?
A right of passage I supposeWe've all been there Dude....
MB
! chatted with MIke today and got a revalation, he typed the following: " Vudoo isn’t building full blown BR rifles. " and "... just so everyone understands, Ivan is building the high end BR rifles, Vudoo is building a target rifle. The repeaters, although highly accurate and some are using them in BR and F Class and doing well, see more use in a different type of game.".
THIS IS A MAJOR GAME CHANGER TO ME
I'm seriously considering cancelling my order as I was led to believe that this new single shot was developed as a serious new BR factory action.
What say you all.........
! chatted with MIke today and got a revalation, he typed the following: " Vudoo isn’t building full blown BR rifles. " and "... just so everyone understands, Ivan is building the high end BR rifles, Vudoo is building a target rifle. The repeaters, although highly accurate and some are using them in BR and F Class and doing well, see more use in a different type of game.".
THIS IS A MAJOR GAME CHANGER TO ME
I'm seriously considering cancelling my order as I was led to believe that this new single shot was developed as a serious new BR factory action.
What say you all.........
This just sounds to me like there will be different tiers of the V-22S rifles depending on the intended discipline reserving the high-end BR rifle builds for smiths that have the experience and knowledge to eke out every bit of accuracy in the system.
! chatted with MIke today and got a revalation, he typed the following: " Vudoo isn’t building full blown BR rifles. " and "... just so everyone understands, Ivan is building the high end BR rifles, Vudoo is building a target rifle. The repeaters, although highly accurate and some are using them in BR and F Class and doing well, see more use in a different type of game.".
THIS IS A MAJOR GAME CHANGER TO ME
I'm seriously considering cancelling my order as I was led to believe that this new single shot was developed as a serious new BR factory action.
What say you all.........
I think the key here is clarifying/meeting expectations for the customers, now that this question/statement has been raised.What exactly were you expecting here, something that was going to run equal to the best 100% bespoke, full customs ?
You seem to be getting a semi custom, probably competitive, offering without a lot of lead time and/or headaches the full custom offerings often entail . Strikes me as a fair Risk/reward balance.
How many guys start this game spending $ on a factory Annie, factory 40x, etc. ?
I think the key here is clarifying/meeting expectations for the customers, now that this question/statement has been raised.
How are you taking what I said in the direction you’re taking it and then coming here just to stir things up? Do you expect to create a big pile on?
I answered your question via PM, we didn’t “chat,” so you have a limited perspective that I took the time to provide as I’m walking through an airport to connect to my next flight.
SMH
MB
I appreciate your posting, as I, for one, was not aware of the strategy to sell a "target" rifle rather than a "match" rifle. I also did not take your message as "stirring" but rather just clarifying what was not obvious from the previous statements made about the new rifle. I'm sure it will shoot well, probably much better than I can shoot. Also, the manufacturing strategy makes sense when you think about it as well.Mike I was not attempting to "stir" things up. I was just reporting what I learned.
If I offended you or others, I sincerely apologize as I have always loved the Vudoo products and appreciate your forthright information on the new single shot. And yes I mixed the words chat and PM
rick137, I think you are spot-on on the measurement discussion. I have yet to shoot a group where the group size is smaller than the diameter of a single bullet (0.223). Still trying to figure out how to do that....Several questions:
1. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S action be superior to other BR actions? That is win BR competitions.
2. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S barreled action be superior to other BR barreled actions?
3. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S barreled action plus Vudoo/Flavio trigger be superior to other BR barreled actions plus BR triggers?
4. How competitive will the V22S full build be in BR competitions? Given the importance of the support, identifying those gentlemen who could provide a support fitted to the stocks in the V22S full build would be helpful if the supports already mentioned in previous posts, such as the PQP from Killough, aren't sufficient to win BR matches.
Since I am full-in rooter for Vudoo I hope the answer to all of the above questions will be a resounding yes.
Personally I am eagerly awaiting my V22S barreled action with B&A BR trigger. It will be bedded in a GRS Sporter stock and using a Swaro scope will be happily shot standing offhand. I will conduct an experiment to determine if I can shoot the V22S more accurately than my trusty V22.
And since we all need some humor these days I will continue to be amused by those who believe they can accurately measure, with either software or calipers, the diameter of bullet holes in paper to 1 mil.
OH! that's easy.... i can answer that one ! use c-t-c rather than o-t-orick137, I think you are spot-on on the measurement discussion. I have yet to shoot a group where the group size is smaller than the diameter of a single bullet (0.223). Still trying to figure out how to do that....
Great Response Hozzie,1. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S action be superior to other BR actions? That is win BR competitions.
No one knows. I am sure Mike and Ivan believe it is. I know others with qualifications who don't based on some design options. I am not making a personal judgement at this time. The results will tell us.. My inclination is to say No simply because the action in and of itself isn't the biggest factor in a winning rifle.
2. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S barreled action be superior to other BR barreled actions?
I guess it depends on how you want to define how you want to get a barreled action. As you don't buy a barreled action alone from other manufacturers (not sure about RimX), this really isn't a great question because if there is no alternative, hard to say it won't be superior. But superior to what? If you include buying an action and having a gunsmith put a barrel on it, then again the answer is no. This isn't a zero sum game. One gun might be a better shooter, the next not.
3. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S barreled action plus Vudoo/Flavio trigger be superior to other BR barreled actions plus BR triggers? See answer 1.
4. How competitive will the V22S full build be in BR competitions? Given the importance of the support, identifying those gentlemen who could provide a support fitted to the stocks in the V22S full build would be helpful if the supports already mentioned in previous posts, such as the PQP from Killough, aren't sufficient to win BR matches.
See answer 1: If the PQP isn't sufficient to win BR matches, I think you need to tell Bob Cleveland he is doing something wrong as that is what he uses. He is probably the top shooter in all of BR at this time and has been for the last two years.. He will be at the match on Aug 1st. Tell him that after the match
Since I am full-in rooter for Vudoo I hope the answer to all of the above questions will be a resounding yes.
Sorry to disappoint. I also have a Vudoo, but BR is more than just an action. Nothing wrong with rooting.
Personally I am eagerly awaiting my V22S barreled action with B&A BR trigger. It will be bedded in a GRS Sporter stock and using a Swaro scope will be happily shot standing offhand. I will conduct an experiment to determine if I can shoot the V22S more accurately than my trusty V22.
And since we all need some humor these days I will continue to be amused by those who believe they can accurately measure, with either software or calipers, the diameter of bullet holes in paper to 1 mil.
Several questions:
1. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S action be superior to other BR actions? That is win BR competitions.
2. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S barreled action be superior to other BR barreled actions?
3. With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S barreled action plus Vudoo/Flavio trigger be superior to other BR barreled actions plus BR triggers?
4. How competitive will the V22S full build be in BR competitions? Given the importance of the support, identifying those gentlemen who could provide a support fitted to the stocks in the V22S full build would be helpful if the supports already mentioned in previous posts, such as the PQP from Killough, aren't sufficient to win BR matches.
Since I am full-in rooter for Vudoo I hope the answer to all of the above questions will be a resounding yes.
Personally I am eagerly awaiting my V22S barreled action with B&A BR trigger. It will be bedded in a GRS Sporter stock and using a Swaro scope will be happily shot standing offhand. I will conduct an experiment to determine if I can shoot the V22S more accurately than my trusty V22.
And since we all need some humor these days I will continue to be amused by those who believe they can accurately measure, with either software or calipers, the diameter of bullet holes in paper to 1 mil.
TKH:Rick137,
Re: Your first question. " With the other components in a full custom BR build including rest will the V22S action be superior to other BR actions?"
Given rest and actions alone don't win matches what criteria would you use to determine which action is superior?
This is not a trick question. I'm just trying to get my head around what guys are expecting as a result of this new entry into the BR game.
TKH
Guys I am seeing a ton of concern about the V22S build from Vudoo. I know the list of parts being put in my Factory V22S is all top quality and all would be in a custom build. But I know I am not getting a custom build at the end of the day. Guys make your mind up if you want a 100% custom rimfire rifle and can deal with Months or even a year or longer to receive your rifle. I am dipping my toe in the BR world and have seen things that are crazy! Do I think when I get my new V22S I am going out and start setting the world on fire, NOPE! Do I think I can go down to my local BR shoot and do well, yes because I am not shooting against guys like Ivan or Bob! Do I think I will be able to win a HIGH level Smallbore F-class shoot with my new factory built V22S...HELL YES without a doubt! To all guys getting into the BR world, you better worry about one thing, LEARN to test ammo. Once again, Please listen NON-BR guys"ME" wanting to test the waters, the real secret to BR is ammo, ammo, ammo.
TKH:
My interest in benchrest shooting is purely intellectual, the physics of accuracy/precision as it were, since I presume the accuracy/precision of benchrest shooting is only superseded by railgun shooting. So I have no expectation whatsoever in a practical sense.
Your question is spot-on. Actions do not have an accuracy/precision. Barrels do not have an accuracy/precision. Ammunition does not have an accuracy/precision. Only weapon systems have an accuracy/precision, that is only something which actually shoots has an accuracy/precision. Also the shooter is part of a weapon system. For sake of discussion assume two shooters have equal marksmanship skill. One is using a great benchrest weapon system that has won national competitions. Anothing is using a benchrest weapon system with a V22S action together with all other compatable top-notch components to produce optimal accuracy/precision. How would the two shooters fare in head-to-head competition? Would ammunition roulette determine the winner? If the Vudoo based weapon system won what contribution would the Vudoo action have made? Basically impossible to know. Only know that a weapon system with a Vudoo action was superior to the other weapon system.
Lets have fun and shoot the shoot.
Thank you tonykharper for contributing to my question in #428:rick137,
Thank you for your honest, straight forward response. We are in complete agreement about equipment.
I have shot RFBR for quite sometime and I would like to make two points that may help others understand my initial question.
A rimfire action has much more influence over accuracy than a centerfire action in a rifle build. It has to do with ignition.
Centerfire has that wonderful self contained primer in the middle of the cartridge. Makes ignition very consistent from shot to shot.
Powder in a centerfire case fills, or nearly fills the case. Rimfire cases are less than 10% full.
Rimfire depends on the firing pin striking the case head to cause ignition.
If two rimfire actions are made with the same design and with the same precision, (eg. bolt centered, threads centered, action face square, locking lug contact, trigger hanger properly located, etc. etc.)
The action that delivers the most consistent strike to the cartridge case (location of strike, and depth of strike,
will more often than not be the more accurate . Some action designs make achieving this consistency easier than others.
The other point is rail guns rarely beat bag guns in shooting for score, or even in group matches.
Rail guns have there uses but are not often used in open competition.
TKH
And what's that in the middle on the right?
S:I am fairly new to the BR 50 game (2 years) and what I have learned is that actions do play a very important part in the total package. I started out with two older, used actions which was all that was available to me at the time. Some months later I obtained two brand new actions from the same manufacturer. Both of the new actions never came up to the shooting quality of the older actions for some reason. I put the same barrel, same stock, same trigger, same scope, same lot numbers of ammo and shot indoor under same conditions. The two new actions were never able to come close to the older ones. With everything being the same the new actions, whether it was tolerances in the manufacturing process I don't know, but I gave them every chance and could never make them equal. My gunsmith went through the new ones, trying to make them shoot but he was never able to correct them. He was the same gunsmith on one of the original actions. So when someone tells me that the action is not a big factor I can show them my score cards which I still have. After discarding those two new actions, I tried a different brand of action and found it shot on a comparable basis with my older actions, although I was not as comfortable with the feel of the action as my old ones. That was just a personal preference. Also, I had the opportunity to actually inspect and operate the new Vudoo prototypes a few weeks back and I immediately put my name on the list for a couple of them. The quality of workmanship and design effort that has gone into the Vudoo is evident when you actually hold one in your hand. I think everyone at Buck Creek will be impressed when they see it. Just my two cents worth.