Vudoo V-22S Single Shot BR/F-Class Action

#351
May I ask a stupid question? I have been trying to absorb the info presented here and I understand pretty much all of it. I have noticed one thing - BR shooters will go a long ways and spend a lot of $$$ to get that last little bit of accuracy and edge. That's a good thing.

So in that light, I was curious why I don't see more discussion about barrel tapers. I have seen several threads extolling the accuracy virtues of a reverse taper barrel over a no taper or regular taper one. They seem to have some mathematics to back up their claims. Supposedly, from a harmonics standpoint, by design, they are more accurate.

So my stupid question is - If, and that's a big if, that is true, wouldn't you want to use a reverse taper barrel as your foundation and then work up your barrel length and twist rate on top of it?

BTW, I appreciate Mike B "questioning" conventional wisdom and the time and effort he and others have spent in debunking some of it.

Grace Hopper - "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
 
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#352
KindOldMan said:
May I ask a stupid question? I have been trying to absorb the info presented here and I understand pretty much all of it. I have noticed one thing - BR shooters will go a long ways and spend a lot of $$$ to get that last little bit of accuracy and edge. That's a good thing.

So in that light, I was curious why I don't see more discussion about barrel tapers. I have seen several threads extolling the accuracy virtues of a reverse taper barrel over a no taper or regular taper one. They seem to have some mathematics to back up their claims. Supposedly, from a harmonics standpoint, by design, they are more accurate.

So my stupid question is - If, and that's a big if, that is true, wouldn't you want to use a reverse taper barrel as your foundation and then work up your barrel length and twist rate on top of it?

BTW, I appreciate Mike B "questioning" conventional wisdom and the time and effort he and others have spent in debunking some of it.

Grace Hopper - "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Click to expand...

Dude, I'm so glad you posted this question. It's not something I currently know a lot about, but I certainly have an interest in putting some data together. I've done a lot of work with twist rates and we have some rifles out there that are blowing peoples minds at distance. Now is as good a time as any to establish a broader coverage of where these next steps take us.

MB
 
#353
MB. One question that I have seen in previous posts and Ivan stated it was up to you. Will there be a V-22 S at the shoot on the first. If not shooting at least for folks to take a good looks at. Thanks for any info. Trent.
 
#354
KindOldMan said:
May I ask a stupid question? I have been trying to absorb the info presented here and I understand pretty much all of it. I have noticed one thing - BR shooters will go a long ways and spend a lot of $$$ to get that last little bit of accuracy and edge. That's a good thing.

So in that light, I was curious why I don't see more discussion about barrel tapers. I have seen several threads extolling the accuracy virtues of a reverse taper barrel over a no taper or regular taper one. They seem to have some mathematics to back up their claims. Supposedly, from a harmonics standpoint, by design, they are more accurate.

So my stupid question is - If, and that's a big if, that is true, wouldn't you want to use a reverse taper barrel as your foundation and then work up your barrel length and twist rate on top of it?

BTW, I appreciate Mike B "questioning" conventional wisdom and the time and effort he and others have spent in debunking some of it.

Grace Hopper - "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Click to expand...
Not stupid at all.
The overwhelming majority of barrels are straight and those, usually, fall between .875"-.900".
IMHO reverse taper barrels have zero accuracy advantages, many including myself feel they are actually more finicky to tune. many, including me, have tried them.
Gunsmith bud of mine, actually did several triangular ones as well.
The best barrel makers, usually make'em straight, I don't know if Dan Muller, for instance, even offers a RT.
The big exception here would be IR 50 sporters, largely reverse taper with a " dognut" on the end but that is largely because they are needed to make weight (7.5 lbs) with .

Twist rates are almost entirely 16"-17".

Barrel length is usually derived by putting the muzzle at the tightest/roundest spot in the blank.
 
#355
Roscoe230 said:
MB. One question that I have seen in previous posts and Ivan stated it was up to you. Will there be a V-22 S at the shoot on the first. If not shooting at least for folks to take a good looks at. Thanks for any info. Trent.
Click to expand...

Yessir, I'll have a table set up with as many display items as I can get gathered up.

MB
 
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#357
KindOldMan said:
May I ask a stupid question? I have been trying to absorb the info presented here and I understand pretty much all of it. I have noticed one thing - BR shooters will go a long ways and spend a lot of $$$ to get that last little bit of accuracy and edge. That's a good thing.

So in that light, I was curious why I don't see more discussion about barrel tapers. I have seen several threads extolling the accuracy virtues of a reverse taper barrel over a no taper or regular taper one. They seem to have some mathematics to back up their claims. Supposedly, from a harmonics standpoint, by design, they are more accurate.

So my stupid question is - If, and that's a big if, that is true, wouldn't you want to use a reverse taper barrel as your foundation and then work up your barrel length and twist rate on top of it?

BTW, I appreciate Mike B "questioning" conventional wisdom and the time and effort he and others have spent in debunking some of it.

Grace Hopper - "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Click to expand...
"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions" is a catchy statement but is meaningless. However, one good experiment may decide which of a thousand speculations is correct.
 
#358
FWIW several years back everybody was going nuts over twist rates and bore dimensions.
Some Suhls came through with 19" twists bbl makers did a lot between 17"-18" twists, Benchmark was sending them out .215" in the bore With .0005" worth of taper.
These days everything is about rifling configuration vs Coriolis effect , everything from 2 through 8 grooves, regular, ratchet, MI, corrugated MI. It is mind boggling, hell we even have one guy making bbl's 3/4 cut rifled the remainder buttoned!!!
A few guys buy 8-10 blanks to end up with one or two very competitive bbl's.
This, folks, is the Formula 1 of 22 shooting in terms of outright equipment performance.
 
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#359
With the lead times on certain barrels, it makes sense to order a few with the hope of finding one. Then it’s about finding ammo for that one. When you run out of ammo for that one, the search is on for ammo for the runner up.
 
#360
Sgeorge said:
With the lead times on certain barrels, it makes sense to order a few with the hope of finding one. Then it’s about finding ammo for that one. When you run out of ammo for that one, the search is on for ammo for the runner up.
Click to expand...

No doubt some barrels are particular, most good ones I've seen/had are not.
really good ammo shoots in multiple barrels.
My better ammo performs in four different barrels well And that is not unique
 
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#361
Tim7139 said:
No doubt some barrels are particular, most good ones I've seen/had are not.
really good ammo shoots in multiple barrels.
My better ammo performs in four different barrels well And that is not unique
Click to expand...
I've seen pretty much the same out of several cut-rifled Kriegers, one (so far)Bartlein, one Benchmark 3-groove, and one Lilja titebore - all of these bbls shot the same lots very well. I've done a couple of Shilen select match ratchet rifled bbls for CZ 457s, and though it's been a month or so ago, I thought one of them had slightly different preference for ammo than all the other bbls mentioned. But that was early this past spring - by fall, it just could be that this bbl will 'fall into line' with the rest of them and shoot the same lots they all prefer just as well as they do. Or, it might be possible that a ratchet rifled button bbl might need a different lot than the others to shoot up to its potential...only time will tell. BTW, they were all chambered with a PTG EPS reamer. I went from having plenty of time to shoot this spring to almost NO time to shoot for the past couple of months - another very good reason to keep notes on range sessions.
 
#362
Things are cookin' right along, in the machines as I write this. Couldn't be happier with the V-22S....

V22S-2.jpg


V22S.jpg


MB
 
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#364
flatland1 said:
I've seen pretty much the same out of several cut-rifled Kriegers, one (so far)Bartlein, one Benchmark 3-groove, and one Lilja titebore - all of these bbls shot the same lots very well. I've done a couple of Shilen select match ratchet rifled bbls for CZ 457s, and though it's been a month or so ago, I thought one of them had slightly different preference for ammo than all the other bbls mentioned. But that was early this past spring - by fall, it just could be that this bbl will 'fall into line' with the rest of them and shoot the same lots they all prefer just as well as they do. Or, it might be possible that a ratchet rifled button bbl might need a different lot than the others to shoot up to its potential...only time will tell. BTW, they were all chambered with a PTG EPS reamer. I went from having plenty of time to shoot this spring to almost NO time to shoot for the past couple of months - another very good reason to keep notes on range sessions.
Click to expand...
All the were chambered the same. What about headspacing? Just curious.
 
#368
So, a little glimpse of things to come. Two Ivanhoe rifles competed today in the Arkansas State Tournament and took first and fifth place. These rifles were not built on the V-22S, but they do showcase that what's to come is pretty epic. Greg Monroe placed first with Bill Drummond placing fifth and posting the high card. It's pretty well known that Vudoo has seriously contributed to what the NRL22 and Rimfire PRS scene looks like and we're just as serious about how we're approaching Benchrest.

MB
 
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#371
Is ADL the standard bottom metal for Rem 700 benchrest rifles? Is there any difference in the trigger guard geometry for Rem 700 ADL and BDL bottom metals?
 
#372
RAVAGE88 said:
The Kelbly's 11mm rings will slide right onto the receiver, or you can attach any of the currently available rails or Talley one-piece mounts.

MB
Click to expand...
Hopefully those entry slots in the action will accept .500 "long" Harrell rings (which are available in 3 heights - the Kelbly rings only come in "standard" height which look close to Harrell "short") - http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/products/aluminum-scope-rings

What is the distance between any two same-feature points in the front and rear slots? [I'm trying to get a handle on how those locations will match up to my scope options.] Thanks.
 
#375
Candoo said:
I talked to Mike today, That boy is running around like a chicken with it's head cut off. Everybody, we are all trying to give you guys and girls the best Benchrest action that has been produced in America thus far. I have two limited production prototype actions here that I have built into rifles for the purpose of testing. Mike and everyone at Vudoo Gun Works have done a great job with designing something new to get us all to the next level with rimfire precision shooting. I have been given the opportunity to make something that is already a great improvement over what we have had in the past into something that is going to be a class above anything I have seen.

Mike has been very open minded, easy to work with to make beneficial changes to this action for you guys. In making those changes it has set some things back as far as production. I am asking you, please be patient. Mike, Paul, Jill, everyone at Vudoo Gun Works and I will get this done. I can not express to you how excited I am about this. I have been shooting, designing and building precision benchrest shooting equipment for over 9 years now. I have never met a group of people more dedicated to delivering a superior product.

All of that being said, so far I am pleased with the progress that has been made. The action is smooth, easy to load, easy to strip the bolt assembly for cleaning and inspection. The ignition in rimfire is one of the most critical areas, it being constant is absolute. Tolerance relationships have also been addressed where precision is required. That's about all I can divulge at the moment, more to come soon.

I will post some hard data by the end of the week. Until then a few more photos for you to enjoy.
Click to expand...
Ivan, did you post the hard data yet? I did not see any and I am looking forward to seeing some data on the new rifles performance.

Best regards!
 
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#381
Mike and Ivan, back on June 29th, Ivan posted some pics and mentioned he would be posting hard data from the new rifle later that week. We're coming up on two weeks later, and we have not seen any hard data yet. I think you've had a few design changes on the action since then, but since you are taking orders, I assume that means the design has been finalized. Can either of you share some hard data with us yet? Can we get a brief update when you have a chance?

Thanks and we appreciate all the efforts!
 
#385
Rimfireshooter99 said:
Mike and Ivan, back on June 29th, Ivan posted some pics and mentioned he would be posting hard data from the new rifle later that week. We're coming up on two weeks later, and we have not seen any hard data yet. I think you've had a few design changes on the action since then, but since you are taking orders, I assume that means the design has been finalized. Can either of you share some hard data with us yet? Can we get a brief update when you have a chance?

Thanks and we appreciate all the efforts!
Click to expand...
I know you guys and girls are hungry for information, But think about it like this, Mike(Vudoo Gun Works) and I started talking 5/1/20 about the action as well as other things. As soon as Mike could he was on a plane coming here, spent two long days testing in the tunnel, going over what it takes to make something for you and make it better(not very specific going to keep it that way). Mike and I are very dedicated, very driven to make not just the action O.K. but to make it awesome. Jill, Paul and Mike (Vudoo Gun Works), Adam Braverman and his Team (Lapua), Ivan (Bullet PRO 150) we all are working as hard and as fast as we can to bring you all something to enjoy for a long time.

Ivan
 
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#386
Travelor said:
Ravage, I have a question. The firing pin assembly looks like a lot of mass.
Do you think this will affect accuracy due to its mass moving forward then abruptly stopping ?
Click to expand...
Travelor

The short answer is because of variations in primer compound and where it is or isn't in the case, ignition is more consistent, the variations matter less.
Ivan
 
#387
Candoo said:
I know you guys and girls are hungry for information, But think about it like this, Mike(Vudoo Gun Works) and I started talking 5/1/20 about the action as well as other things. As soon as Mike could he was on a plane coming here, spent two long days testing in the tunnel, going over what it takes to make something for you and make it better(not very specific going to keep it that way). Mike and I are very dedicated, very driven to make not just the action O.K. but to make it awesome. Jill, Paul and Mike (Vudoo Gun Works), Adam Braverman and his Team (Lapua), Ivan (Bullet PRO 150) we all are working as hard and as fast as we can to bring you all something to enjoy for a long time.

Ivan
Click to expand...
C:

I presume the goal is to design and manufacture the ultimate rimfire benchrest action-trigger. A game changer. Until the Gen 2 version comes out.:)
 
#390
Travelor said:
Ravage, I have a question. The firing pin assembly looks like a lot of mass.
Do you think this will affect accuracy due to its mass moving forward then abruptly stopping ?
Click to expand...
Although Ivan gave you important info realize that most well setup BR actions rely more on mass than speed. They also don't stop abruptly, per se, the action of striking the case, driving the pin into it, acts as a buffer as opposed to hitting a hard stop Instantly.
 
#391
Candoo said:
I know you guys and girls are hungry for information, But think about it like this, Mike(Vudoo Gun Works) and I started talking 5/1/20 about the action as well as other things. As soon as Mike could he was on a plane coming here, spent two long days testing in the tunnel, going over what it takes to make something for you and make it better(not very specific going to keep it that way). Mike and I are very dedicated, very driven to make not just the action O.K. but to make it awesome. Jill, Paul and Mike (Vudoo Gun Works), Adam Braverman and his Team (Lapua), Ivan (Bullet PRO 150) we all are working as hard and as fast as we can to bring you all something to enjoy for a long time.

Ivan
Click to expand...
Ivan, we all get that it takes time to do what you are all trying to do. No questions there. But you brought up the topic of posting hard data, so we're just following up. If it's available, and the team is comfortable sharing it with the rest of the world, we'd like to see it. If you're not comfortable sharing at this point, that's ok too. Just keep us in the loop, especially when you say you're going to post some new info, and then it does not show up.

Thanks!
 
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#392
You have to start some where, the first set of data sheets are from when Mike B. was here. Remember Mike has never done this type of testing before, so don't be too hard on him. Vudoo Test Results 7.17.20 004.JPG

The second set of data sheets are from the actual first Vudoo, Ivanhoe rifle build.Vudoo Test Results 7.17.20 007.JPG

The third set of data sheets are from today testing the Vudoo, Ivanhoe rifle while trying to show you where we need to be comparing it to my rifle I shot in competition. The last target was shot with new Lapua test lots I just received today as well. Vudoo Test Results 7.17.20 009.JPG

Guys it's been a long day! When I get a chance I will call Landy, I think he will be happy to weigh in on this and explain some things. Remember numbers never lie.

Hope this helps!!

Ivan
 
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#394
I’m certainly impressed. Once the right ammo is found, those groups will shrink and be more consistent. That’s why people send rifles off to Lapua and Eley for ammo testing
 
#395
How much difference can the support system make? It has been stated that for optimum accuracy the stock/chassis and the mechanical rest must be a good fit.

As I have stated before, I wonder if the optimal ammunition derived from testing at Lapua or Eley is the optimal for your shooting since the support systems are different? We are talking about 0.0XX MOA differences.
 
#396
rick137 said:
How much difference can the support system make? It has been stated that for optimum accuracy the stock/chassis and the mechanical rest must be a good fit.

As I have stated before, I wonder if the optimal ammunition derived from testing at Lapua or Eley is the optimal for your shooting since the support systems are different? We are talking about 0.0XX MOA differences.
Click to expand...
 
#397
As I understand it the action is still being worked on to make further improvements. If anyone can fix the issues and make it competitive it's probably Ivan. I feel certain that the final model will be competitive once all the adjustments and testing are done.
 
#398
Travelor said:
Looking at the above test data sheets , the results were actually pretty bad for a BR gun. It be "in the hunt" the groups should be in the .1"'s to .2".

So far mot impressed even though I have one on order.
Click to expand...
In real world performance you'd be surprised how few guns pull off your stated expectations, especially guns that will shoot in the .1's on anything considered consistently.
this seems often repeated " internet lore"
spend time looking at historic Eley/Lapua test tunnel results or Landy's substantial published data if you doubt my comments.
 
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#399
Ivan, nice data.....thanks.
Given this is early, with a platform in development, could you throw out an idea, from your personal testing history, approximately what percentile you'd place this? How many guns do you figure you have tested in your facility?
thanks again.
 
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#400
Tim7139 said:
In real world performance you'd be surprised how few guns pull off your stated expectations, especially guns that will shoot in the .1's on anything considered consistently.
this seems often repeated " internet lore"
spend time looking at historic Eley/Lapua test tunnel results or Landy's substantial published data if you doubt my comments.
Click to expand...


Yup. I've looked at the test tunnel data. 10-shot groups were often in the .5s and .6s @ 50.

I pull off .2s and .3 occasionally with just 5-shot groups... maybe 30-50% of the time. 10- shot are seldom better than 0.5 / 0.6

Alot of internet chatter and pics are "best group ever" and not consistently repeatable.

Group size is the other dimension lotta guys lie about. :)
 
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