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William Buck Memorial Postal Matches
- Thread starter Rimfireshooter99
- Start date
I've been following the bungee cord/front rest tension thread on Rimfire Accuracy for several months and fashioned a DIY cord from surgical tubing, a garage hook I found in my shop, and some clamps I ordered in order to try this method on several rifle I shoot from my PQP lite one piece rest. The results were somewhat rifle specific and could be summarized as follows:
The weight of the rifle makes a big difference. I was trying to use the same setup on each rifle but laminate stocked rifles (2500X and 10/22) required more tension than the composite stocked 40X.
I realized that the results are not statistically significant and I'm sure my instructor in Design of Experiments would have given me a failing grade but I think the results are relevant to the way I shoot.
Well, I've got four rifles to clean.
Unlimited Match
200/12X - Martini- 2500X/Eley Match 1061 on 10/20/23
200/10X - Martini- Custom 40X/Eley Match 1052 on 10/20/23
Match Grade Rifle 50 Yards
181/04X - Martini- Custom Ruger 10/22/Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Precision on 10/20/23
- Custom 10/22 with Kidd barrel - Unsurprisingly using this method on the 10/22 did not work well enough to shoot a target as the 10/22 is very sensitive to how it's held. I shot the target below poorly without bungee tension because my technique was inconsistent.
- Custom 40X with Shilen barrel - I shot the best target I've ever shot on the 200 point target using just enough tension to pull the rifle back against the front stop.
- 2500X with Shilen barrel - My score was consistent with the scores I normally in shoot in the wind conditions I had this morning. Thus, from a data perspective the tension neither helped nor hurt. Subjectively, I felt like there was some benefit and I'll probably repeat the experiment perhaps increasing the tension.
- Custom Anschutz 54 unknown custom barrel - Tried to use the tension on this rifle but was unable to get it to settle down between the wind coming up and being tired so I gave up. I'd like to try again on a calmer day.
The weight of the rifle makes a big difference. I was trying to use the same setup on each rifle but laminate stocked rifles (2500X and 10/22) required more tension than the composite stocked 40X.
I realized that the results are not statistically significant and I'm sure my instructor in Design of Experiments would have given me a failing grade but I think the results are relevant to the way I shoot.
Well, I've got four rifles to clean.
Unlimited Match
200/12X - Martini- 2500X/Eley Match 1061 on 10/20/23
200/10X - Martini- Custom 40X/Eley Match 1052 on 10/20/23
Match Grade Rifle 50 Yards
181/04X - Martini- Custom Ruger 10/22/Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Precision on 10/20/23
Thanks Randy. I've done that as well on my rifle. I saw no significant accuracy difference indoors at 50 yards, with a tight bungee vs a gentle bungee. Currently, I only use enough tension to pull the rifle back to the front stop on the rest.I've been following the bungee cord/front rest tension thread on Rimfire Accuracy for several months and fashioned a DIY cord from surgical tubing, a garage hook I found in my shop, and some clamps I ordered in order to try this method on several rifle I shoot from my PQP lite one piece rest. The results were somewhat rifle specific and could be summarized as follows:
- Custom 10/22 with Kidd barrel - Unsurprisingly using this method on the 10/22 did not work well enough to shoot a target as the 10/22 is very sensitive to how it's held. I shot the target below poorly without bungee tension because my technique was inconsistent.
- Custom 40X with Shilen barrel - I shot the best target I've ever shot on the 200 point target using just enough tension to pull the rifle back against the front stop.
- 2500X with Shilen barrel - My score was consistent with the scores I normally in shoot in the wind conditions I had this morning. Thus, from a data perspective the tension neither helped nor hurt. Subjectively, I felt like there was some benefit and I'll probably repeat the experiment perhaps increasing the tension.
- Custom Anschutz 54 unknown custom barrel - Tried to use the tension on this rifle but was unable to get it to settle down between the wind coming up and being tired so I gave up. I'd like to try again on a calmer day.
The weight of the rifle makes a big difference. I was trying to use the same setup on each rifle but laminate stocked rifles (2500X and 10/22) required more tension than the composite stocked 40X.
I realized that the results are not statistically significant and I'm sure my instructor in Design of Experiments would have given me a failing grade but I think the results are relevant to the way I shoot.
Well, I've got four rifles to clean.
Unlimited Match
200/12X - Martini- 2500X/Eley Match 1061 on 10/20/23
200/10X - Martini- Custom 40X/Eley Match 1052 on 10/20/23
Match Grade Rifle 50 Yards
181/04X - Martini- Custom Ruger 10/22/Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Precision on 10/20/23
I have your scores posted. Please note that you and JerryP tied for 2nd spot, but Iisted his score in 2nd place, since he shot it first by date. First ever tie for a match position, in my experience with the Postal Matches.
Larry
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Sounds right to me. JerryP shot first and should be listed before my later score.
Managed a factory rifle target before the wind took over.
Factory rifle 50 yards
198/14x - Martini - CZ457 MTR/SK Standard Plus on 10/21/23
Randy, I have your score posted.Sounds right to me. JerryP shot first and should be listed before my later score.
Managed a factory rifle target before the wind took over.
Factory rifle 50 yards
198/14x - Martini - CZ457 MTR/SK Standard Plus on 10/21/23
Shooters, I have been working on a revised target for Factory Rifles. I'll replace the current Factory Rifle Match Target starting in November. I've attached a copy so you can see what it looks like in advance.
Summary of Changes: The new target is scored differently than the old one. Only three rings on the new target (same size as the middle three rings on the smaller bullseye on the current target). They are scored as 10pts, 5pts, and 0pts. So only the inner two rings will score points for you.
Best edge scoring, two shots per bull, same as before.
I'll replace the current target on the first post page with the new one at the first of November.
Enjoy the slightly more challenging new target!
Larry
Summary of Changes: The new target is scored differently than the old one. Only three rings on the new target (same size as the middle three rings on the smaller bullseye on the current target). They are scored as 10pts, 5pts, and 0pts. So only the inner two rings will score points for you.
Best edge scoring, two shots per bull, same as before.
I'll replace the current target on the first post page with the new one at the first of November.
Enjoy the slightly more challenging new target!
Larry
Larry,
It appears that the black X ring is .25" like the smaller bull on the old target rather than .29" like the larger bull. The 10 ring looks to be .5" like the larger bull as opposed .44" on the smaller bull. 10-5-0 scoring will be much easier to score than 10-9-8-7.
IMHO, 10-5-0 scoring will drive overall scores much lower but the change in the X and 10 rings will mean fewer X's but make a 200 slightly easier because we don't have the two smaller bulls. For example the 198-14X I shot this month with my CZ457 would have scored 190 with fewer X's with the newer target.
For me personally I think my chances of a 200 are higher with my CZ457 but when I shoot my Tikka T1X, Ruger RART, BSA M13 Martini, or Winchester 69A which aren't really capable of of a 200, my scores will be really low. That is to say anything outside of the 1" diameter 5 point ring will be punished with a zero score.
While I haven't shot my less accurate factory rifles for record since starting to recover from foot surgery, I certainly intend to as energy permits regardless. For my CZ457 this means I will need to step up my game and shoot better on the newer target or perhaps invest in a aftermarket trigger. I wonder if shooters who don't have a factory rifle capable of shooting a 200 would be discouraged from participating.
Was this your intent or have I misjudged something? Regardless, I appreciate the effort to change things up.
Randy
Randy and All, my intent in the change was to make the Factory match slightly more challenging, but not to drive folks away. Scores might go down, but they will go down for all shooters, given the changes made to the target. We don't have that many shooters to begin with, but I wanted to freshen up this target since we've shot it from the beginning. There are a lot that shoot well within the first two rings, hence my change to the 10-5-0 scoring. I would say to everyone, give it a try, and let's see what the scores look like in a few months.
Thanks for the comments!
Larry
Larry, if I get a decent day, I’ll give it a trial run. I’ll have to be on my best for sure.
John
Mr. Larry
I think it's a great Idea!!!
Any changes coming for the Unlimited Match Target!?!?!?!?
Thanks Bowchamp. I've been thinking about that one as well. We see a lot of 200 scores so I might just have a slight adjustment for that one. Maybe roll it out for spring next year.Mr. Larry
I think it's a great Idea!!!
Any changes coming for the Unlimited Match Target!?!?!?!?
Larry, a suggestion for the UL make the 10 ring a 1/4" I believe it is 1/2" now and then the 9 ring will be 1/2"
Lee
Larry, I certainly plan to shoot the new factory target and see. Looks like the number of shooters went down noticeably while I was unable to shoot caring for my wife during her illness in January/February and recovering from surgery the past six months particularly in Iron Sight, Factory, and Master.
As far as Unlimited goes shooters this month are only separated by X count.'
Randy
Thanks for keeping this going sir. I’d almost forgot about it. I printed some targets on card stock and plan to participate soon.
Ok, been working lots and haven't shot much in last month. Sighted in my Kidd for a PRS event this past week and decided to try and shoot my new (to me) Deuce Ultimatum with some Eley Match. Had issues with both feeding and ejection on Eley. But it shot okayish for under 300 rounds through it. Would have passed on it for record, but wanted to post something in October even though it was darn cold and only fairly accurate.
Couldn't chrony it as it was 18 Degrees F and my chrony battery went dead.
JBell 6X5 at 50 yards
Avg = .326"
Best group = .226
Shot: October 25th
Gun: Deuce Ultimatum
Ammo: Eley Match
Couldn't chrony it as it was 18 Degrees F and my chrony battery went dead.
JBell 6X5 at 50 yards
Avg = .326"
Best group = .226
Shot: October 25th
Gun: Deuce Ultimatum
Ammo: Eley Match
18 degrees!!!!! Looks mighty good to me Sir!!!
I'd like to hear more about you Deuce. I looked at them when I decided to build a 22 LR benchrest rifle. Never found much on them. Contacted the maker about a single loader and was told a new batch of single shot actions were in the making and would let me know when ready.......never heard anything. The did look very nice.
Hey Mr. Larry
Just wondering if you could use something like this for updating the Unlimited target?........10, 5, 0, touch or take out dot for X???
Just wondering if you could use something like this for updating the Unlimited target?........10, 5, 0, touch or take out dot for X???
Interesting. inside the ring without touching is a 10? 5 if you touch inside and zero outside the ring?
Lee
Bowchamp, hang in there for a bit. I have a couple of ideas for new targets and one is for the unlimited match. Stay tuned for more info!
Larry
Lee and Bowchamp, here's a question for you both. I was thinking of your idea to change up the scoring which would help reduce the number of 200's for the unlimited match. But, I don't want to have any of the few shooters we have think a target they've been shooting is now too difficult to really score well on. So, we could take the current Unlimited target, and score it differently, as Lee noted in his post. Or, we could leave the Unlimited target as is, and create a new match, with more focus on accuracy and precision. I have attached a target I would like you guys to review. It's only a 10-shot target (given the ammo situation and the difficulty in shooting this target well), and the rings are 0.3 inches in diameter. Plenty of sighters, and only 10 record bulls with the single ring. Max. score would be 100. A bonus of 100 points will be added to your score if all 10 shots are clearly inside the ring, and not touching the ring. For this one, the dark smudge circle would not count as touching the ring, only the actual hole left by the bullet. Best edge scoring so you only need to touch the ring to count in. No X-counts in this match, just pure accuracy and precision. Also, not restricted to just unlimited rifles, anyone can shoot this one with any rifle they have.
Thoughts?
This is what I was thinking, but I like your twist on it too.
(edited to add).....If Mr. Larry adds a new match, so as not to discourage shooters, I think your idea would be a great way to score.
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I definitely do not want to discourage any shooters from joining in. I think starting a new match and target would be a good way for everyone to shoot what they wanted and y'alls thoughts for scoring would be great for this.. Also, not sure how hard it is to keep up with all this, don't want to put too much on you.
I like the new target you showed, I'm always looking for a challenge. What would you think about losing all the lines through the bulls for a cleaner target?
I joined a new range recently. This is my second time there. It only has one rifle and one pistol range, but both are nice, also a small lake for fishing. It cost $100 a year for a key and you can shoot anytime between sunrise and sunset.
It was 58-62F, wind 7-9 mph, switchy and blustery as the rain came and went. I ahot some ammo I almost forgot I had. I got it at the test center four years ago to shoot in a rifle at 100 yards. No other rifles liked it. I hadn’t tried it in this rifle yet. Hard to tell with the wind, but the 2500 seems to like it. I needed the wind practice for the last ABRA match of the year next week. I may shoot this ammo.
Unlimited
10/29/2023
2500X, Center X ammo.
200 13X
After that a larger mass of rain settled in and the wind settled down quite a bit for short periods. I decided to try a tuner setting around 135. I almost shot my best ever 6x5, but the sixth group did me in. The wind had started to gust a little and I tried to beat it. Still I’ll take it. I measured conservatively. This was shot with 110# card stock on a new piece of chloroplast, but the paper got wet. On some shots there was no grease ring on so I just measured where I knew the grease ring should be or it would have been much smaller. I subtracted.222 from the outside measurements. I also figured it up using .178 which was the average of three single shot measurements just to see the difference. Because of shooting this thread I use -.222” to measure all my groups anyway. I use that because it’s easier to do the math in my head and there’s no use to change now.
JBell 6x5
10/29/2023
2500X, Center X
Average group size .198”
Best group .098”
It was 58-62F, wind 7-9 mph, switchy and blustery as the rain came and went. I ahot some ammo I almost forgot I had. I got it at the test center four years ago to shoot in a rifle at 100 yards. No other rifles liked it. I hadn’t tried it in this rifle yet. Hard to tell with the wind, but the 2500 seems to like it. I needed the wind practice for the last ABRA match of the year next week. I may shoot this ammo.
Unlimited
10/29/2023
2500X, Center X ammo.
200 13X
After that a larger mass of rain settled in and the wind settled down quite a bit for short periods. I decided to try a tuner setting around 135. I almost shot my best ever 6x5, but the sixth group did me in. The wind had started to gust a little and I tried to beat it. Still I’ll take it. I measured conservatively. This was shot with 110# card stock on a new piece of chloroplast, but the paper got wet. On some shots there was no grease ring on so I just measured where I knew the grease ring should be or it would have been much smaller. I subtracted.222 from the outside measurements. I also figured it up using .178 which was the average of three single shot measurements just to see the difference. Because of shooting this thread I use -.222” to measure all my groups anyway. I use that because it’s easier to do the math in my head and there’s no use to change now.
JBell 6x5
10/29/2023
2500X, Center X
Average group size .198”
Best group .098”
I like this new target because it will be a challenge, but not too difficult to discourage anyone. another thing that needs to be considered and that is scoring. best edge pretty much negates the need for a plug and scoring magnifier unless the shooter really wants to get one.
Lee
Appalachian, I have your Unlimited score posted. Nice shooting!
I have a question on your 6x5. You reported the ave group was .198, but the 6 shots all are .320 or higher? Same for your best group, which, based on the target should be 0.320. Am I reading the target incorrectly? Please check this again and I'll post your findings. Thanks!
Larry
Sorry. Those numbers are outside edge to outside edge, before I subtracted .222”. I added the CTC numbers.
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Larry,
Greetings from N. Texas. God has blessed us with rain every day for the past seven days and although I've got around seven inches at my house we're still short of total rainfall after the drought this spring/summer. Regardless, I woke up to 36F, sunny skies and about 25 MPH of wind this morning. I'm pretty much done shooting for October. Spent some of the down time filling out my renewal for Parker County Sportsman club where I normally shoot skeet and prairie dog rifles and realized I haven't been to the club this year this year for the first time since I moved to Wise County from Dallas 23 years ago. Getting old isn't for wuss's.
As far as targets go I'm pretty happy with the ones we've been shooting. If I had to make a change I'd make the unlimited target a bit more difficult and leave the Match Grade rifle as is. I personally find the ARA type worst edge scoring more difficult to score and didn't enjoy the ARA type targets we had for factory and unlimited rifle a few years back. The bulls on the new factory rifle target are adjacent to one together and if I drop a shot low as I'm prone to do shooting a couple of my rifles it's liable to end up on the wrong bull.
Like with all new things we'll just have to shoot and see. However, shooting will have to wait until the wind chill eases off and I recovere from the dust engendered allergy attach when I rigged heating for my well houses yesterday.
Randy
Randy, thanks for your thoughts on the Factory Target. I changed the bull orientation on the page, so there will be a space between the top row of bulls and the bottom row of bulls, so hopefully, that will prevent any low shots from hitting the row below. Match Grade will stay the same and the Unlimited Target will change slightly to make it a bit more competitive from a scoring perspective. I'll probably roll out the changes for the January matches, since we're only a couple of months away from the new year. That'll give folks time to try out the revisions as well.
Larry
Yeah, there was 8" of snow on the ground here. Shot PRS this weekend in the snow (just for those who called me a baby in another thread for backing out when it was 33 F and raining / snowing all weekend).
I picked up the Deuce maybe 3 weeks ago and it was essentially new and only had a few rounds throught it. The owner advised that he had mag issues and I knew what I was getting into from the get go and the price was very decent.
Overall, the Deuce has some nice pieces in it and the action is smooth. But they dropped the ball ( or rather dropped a Deuce) on the mags; so far anyway. I never really had any feeding issues with the little bit of SK I tested ( less than one box and it shot very well in the wind even). I did some mag mods as soon as I got it and also just bought a new L3I mag, but haven't used it yet. Gotta see maybe the mag latch came loose a bit as Eley sucked for both feeding and ejection. Post comment...yup, the mag latch came loose.
The action is adjustable for headspace and that's a bonus. The barrel I got is quite thick and a larger diameter then the Kukri on my Vudoo. It is a nice looking barreled action. The trigger that was on it it a straight one and I quite like it, but may lighten it a bit yet.
I will keep you posted, but I think the mags are fixable as I had it set up flawlessly after I got it. Also a few nice gents on here are giving me some help with the mags too. Thinking about retiring in January, so if that's the case, I will be shooting it lots. Next up is some RWS and SK testing with the little bit of decent ammo I have access to now.
Haha not the best pic.
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Ruger Precision Rimfire.
I decided to make one serious effort to set up my Ruger Precision Rimfire to shoot in the NRL production division this month. So I did another round of testing with a bunch of different ammo at 52 yards this week. It shot better then usual (typically .5" 6X5) at 50 yards.
JBell 6X5 at 50 yards
Avg = .370"
Best group = .180
Shot: November 2_2023 at 52 yards.
Gun: Ruger Precision Rimfire
Ammo: RWS
Probably a fluke and won't be in the running...but seems like a good 6X5 for what it is anyway.
I decided to make one serious effort to set up my Ruger Precision Rimfire to shoot in the NRL production division this month. So I did another round of testing with a bunch of different ammo at 52 yards this week. It shot better then usual (typically .5" 6X5) at 50 yards.
JBell 6X5 at 50 yards
Avg = .370"
Best group = .180
Shot: November 2_2023 at 52 yards.
Gun: Ruger Precision Rimfire
Ammo: RWS
Probably a fluke and won't be in the running...but seems like a good 6X5 for what it is anyway.
Hi Larry, here are my Factory Rifle targets. I'm including the individual shots with calculations if you need them. Thank you for doing this.
This is my first time moving to SK Rifle Match and I'm pretty pleased. Now if I can just rise to the capability of my equipment. . . ;-)
This is my first time moving to SK Rifle Match and I'm pretty pleased. Now if I can just rise to the capability of my equipment. . . ;-)
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IMG_4421.jpg
Gdawg09, one question. You mentioned moving to SK RM, but your target say Norma Match? Please confirm which is correct?
Also, the dates on your targets are 3/10/23, which are many months old? Maybe these are not the right pics for your November submission?
Larry
Sorry, I must’ve grabbed the wrong Target. I am on the road this morning so I will send you the correct targets when I get home. Thanks.
