M40 Build Guide

#801
A different approach...

I need for some member to measure (as exactly as possible) the length of the 16601 butt plate and post it.

[I'd do it myself, except for the fact that I put mine back in storage. :p]

Thanks!
 
#802
Bolt_Trash said:
I need for some member to measure (as exactly as possible) the length of the 16601 butt plate and post it.

[I'd do it myself, except for the fact that I put mine back in storage. :p]

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'll do this when I get home tonight.

Edit:

It seems to be just at about 5.040" long. But, that's probably shorter than the factory ones. It's obvious mines has been ground around the toe and on the sides a bit.
 
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#803
aur0ra145 said:
I'll do this when I get home tonight.

Edit:

It seems to be just at about 5.040" long. But, that's probably shorter than the factory ones. It's obvious mines has been ground around the toe and on the sides a bit.
Click to expand...


Thanks aur0ra145, for taking the time to get that information and posting it here, in response to my request. Your butt plate's length appears to be well within the norm.

Another SH forum member, SDWhirlwind, who has 14 individual butt plates, contacted me, by PM. 12 of the 14, measure between 5-1/8 inches and 5-1/16 inches, respectively. The remaining 2 are under 5 inches. The greatest variation appeared to be in the widths; understandable given our 'supply' is from butt plates previously on Rem. 725, 740 and 760 models.

I'll post all of the measurements, if somebody wants to really drive themselves nuts.

Personally, I wanted this measurement, so that I could determine various length and width measurements, in photographs (i.e., side profiles containing a full buttplate,) using the butt plate as a 'scale constant.'

Thanks, to all.
 
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#805
Bolt_Trash said:
I need for some member to measure (as exactly as possible) the length of the 16601 butt plate and post it.

[I'd do it myself, except for the fact that I put mine back in storage. :p]

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I have had several of these butt plates,think I still have 3 or 4. They are all sightly different is size. These are all take offs,so I guess the bottom line is that when the plates were installed,who ever the assembler was sanded the plates to match the wood???
 
#807
m1sniper said:
I have had several of these butt plates,think I still have 3 or 4. They are all sightly different is size. These are all take offs,so I guess the bottom line is that when the plates were installed,who ever the assembler was sanded the plates to match the wood???
Click to expand...

That was my understanding as well. I have 3 of those, and they're all slightly different in length.



 
#808
The 16601 butt plate mysteries... unveiled!

To follow, please find a copy of the substantial content and body of SDWhirlwind's message. The italic font and underlines, are mine.

"...there is no 'proprietary' measurements for the Remington aluminum butt plates. They are installed on the stock blanks and then stock and butt plate are rough and more than likely finish sanded as one unit. Which is the reason the outer edges are not anodized and have the yellowish tinge from the Dupont stock finish used. Top radius/contours are not identical nor height from screw center to top dead center and same with radius at the toe along with width variations top to bottom and some with differences from vertical screw center line right and left. The stock blanks were not contoured to the buttplates but final shape at butt heel and toe done I assume by hand in the '60's to each workers taste/satisfaction!
To verify this as proof for you I dug out the dozen 16601 butt plates I have loose. Of the 12 4 have a #1 under the 16601, 2 a #2, 4 a #3 and 2 a #4. So don't know if that number is related to date/period or model or what. The 700's used the same butt plates as some of the 742/760 guns of that time period. There was no correlation between that bottom number and length nor width. I measure length of the 12 with a ruler to nearest 16th =/- as my caliper only goes to 5". Width measured with a caliper to nearest .005". Measurments in order are the ones with #1 marked, #2, etc

#1 5 1/8+" x 1.60"
#2 5 1/8" x 1.585"
#3 5 1/8-" x 1.530"
#4 5 1/16" x 1.50"

#5 5 1/8" x 1.580"
#6 5 1/16" x 1.595"

#7 5 1/16" x 1.580"
#8 5 1/16" x 1.575"
#9 5 1/16" x 1.630"
#10 5 1/8" x 1.605"

#11 5 1/16" x 1.545"
#12 5 1/8" x 1.610

Length was fairly consistent although I have a stock/gun or 2 with plates under 5". Width was the bigger issue and as I stated not consistent at all top to bottom with toe sometimes wider than tapering more abrupt or even more pointed and top contour/radius wider or narrower with no set pattern as to right or left side
curvature which as stated I am guessing is because they were hand done. ..."

There you have it and it also appears, that no correlation can be established, that any variations found, have anything to do with a stock being finished on a Friday! :p

Commence!!
 
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#811
aurOra145....I cant agree with you more. If you are talking about a SH stock...I had my 2112 do my build and he said it would have been easier to have completely redone a standard barrel ADL stock than the amount of work he had to do on the inletting as well as just finishing the exterior as well.
 
#812
1966 Redfield 1" Tube Tokiwartooth anodized job

Sorry, the video is not that good but it does show the quality of the work done by Tokiwartooth. The weapon is a M40 SSA.

February 9, 2014 12:49 PM - YouTube

I've also attached an image. I don't take good pictures.
 

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#815
Parkerizing_'THE GREEN' Color

I thought that these two (2) photos correctly captured that 'elusive' shade of 'green' parkerizing that the original M40's had. We NEED to make every reasonable attempt to (re)establish that formula and process. I don't think it's lost, rather, just misplaced and buried in the either our military's specification archives or those of the major arms manufacturers, of the day.

From a Korean War issued M1D:

THEGREEN_Parkerizing_zps42aa1076.jpg


THEGREEN_Parkerizing_B_zps3fdf5328.jpg



Wherever is that forum member that knew a guy, who knew a guy that knew how it was done? This is a serious topic!
 
#817
I just received this today. This is where the original procurement records are archived. See attachment. I'm not going to pursue it any further. Army olive green is not the same as the Dept. of the Navy's idea of drab green. It is more Black/Gray to the Corps back then. See Ford Gray #7c7f6c

7C7F6C.jpg

EDIT: WTF, I forward the whole attachment to NARA since the chain of command in the original correspondence is a little impressive. I'll post something when I hear something back. Sending a request FOIA always gets a response and saves time in the long run even if it is now public information. I would have never been able to trace it to the Archives in Maryland. If you're near there just go and look at the whole box(s). Probably has lots of interesting things in there.
 

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#818
Green Parkerizing... my head hurts

jtv3062 said:
Soak the rifle in motor oil for a few year should achieve the green park. I forget which brand of oil it was.
Click to expand...

Lurking and surfing through 96 consecutive pages of the CMP Forum turns up this:

"The dark gray/green parkerization coloring that is more often encountered on post war M1 rifles does occur on WWII period M1 receivers, bolts, op rods, and barrels. I would imagine the cromic acid rinse used after phosphating is the principle (agent) causing this for both periods."

Requires further investigation and definitely experimentation.

There's further discussion on the M14 Forum pages, from which it may be extrapolated that the 'nickel' content of the steel was (may have been) a factor in chemical reaction with oil (cosmoline, or maybe Valvoline) over a ten to 25 (10-25) year process and the fact that the M1 receivers were dipped in lead, to make them less brittle was (may have been) another factor.

Link: WW II "Green" Parkerizing - M14 Forum (2 Pages)

They have twelve (12) related 'Search' topic, on the same subject.

One of which leads to here and the (possible) addition of copper (green) to the formula:

Arizona Response Systems, LLC. Notes. Introduction to Metal Finishing

And, Parkerizing, in general: How To Parkerize Steel

There's this Link which may offer an answer, but begs skepticism (must read to page bottom): Green for Parkerizing Conversion

So, Ad infinitum and ditto to all that investigation and experimentation stuff...

Summary: Experimentation on small parts MAY yield an answer.

My head hurts...:p
 
#819
Culpeperdoes it again...

Culpeper said:
I just received this today. This is where the original procurement records are archived. See attachment. I'm not going to pursue it any further. Army olive green is not the same as the Dept. of the Navy's idea of drab green. It is more Black/Gray to the Corps back then. See Ford Gray #7c7f6c

View attachment 29850

EDIT: WTF, I forward the whole attachment to NARA since the chain of command in the original correspondence is a little impressive. I'll post something when I hear something back. Sending a request FOIA always gets a response and saves time in the long run even if it is now public information. I would have never been able to trace it to the Archives in Maryland. If you're near there just go and look at the whole box(s). Probably has lots of interesting things in there.
Click to expand...

Enlarged, for anyone wanting to save a (Very Kool Document :cool:) copy for their build records:

m40data1_zps6ea3ea5f.jpg
 
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#820
Bolt_Trash said:
Enlarged, for anyone wanting to save a (Very Kool Document :cool:) copy for their build records:

m40data1_zps6ea3ea5f.jpg
Click to expand...

Is that an example of the parkerizing color or the anodizing dye used by CAI Technologies? I have been trying to find if anyone or any remnants of CAI exists to get info on the anodizing dye, but no luck.

With regards to the green park, I'm pretty sure there was a guy/firm who said he was achieving this, and actually posted how to do it, on the CMP forum.
 
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#821
29850d1392170987-m40-build-guide-7c7f6c.jpg


That is a close example of taking a original M40 that was used in-country and matching to a hex color. Has nothing to do with the scope. The records at the archives are just the original procurement and supply documents ca. 1966 for the entire weapon system. I have heard of the same person who will tell you over the phone how to achieve the color. I think he is referenced in this thread. I don't quite remember. But I think people are confusing Army and Marine colors. They aren't the same. And since the M40 was such a small production run the best place would be the Remington custom shop for information. They made the rifles. They should have the documents. They chose not to achieve this color on the M40 SSA for some reason or another. Personally, I think the color is a non-issue for clones, including the M40 SSA. There is just a lot of speculation and little actual research going on.
 
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#822
Culpeper said:
29850d1392170987-m40-build-guide-7c7f6c.jpg


That is a close example of taking a original M40 that was used in-country and matching to a hex color.
Click to expand...

For those of us unfamiliar with this 'hex color' system, are there any reference number(s) and/or name(s,) associated with same, that we can look-up, for ourselves?

Culpeper said:
I have heard of the same person who will tell you over the phone how to achieve the color. I think he is referenced in this thread.
Please see LINK where I note my 'skepticism.'

Culpeper said:
Personally, I think the color is a non-issue for clones, including the M40 SSA.
It definitely is a matter of personal preference and an incurable disease, all neatly wrapped-up in one obsession. Absolute perfection costs in the area of what, $40K? Everything else, between acquiring parts and final assembly is just 'elapsed time' and the more detailed information that can be found, the more accurate the clone can (potentially) be.

Culpeper said:
There is just a lot of speculation and little actual research going on.
I think that what you've contributed, can be construed as 'research.' As long as there is an 'open' question about this firearm; somebody looking for and someone willing to dig for answers, this process will continue. Ultimately, the more specifications and specifics that are pursued, the less speculation and conjecture will exist. None of this information goes to waste.

Commence!

Just can't get multiple "quotes" function to work for some reason- my apologies.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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#823
Yes, hex colors can be traced to paint manufacturer schemes. The sample and hex color I posted above is Ford Gray. See post #832 and #740. On #740, using the link, scroll down the bottom of the page to see paint manufactuers. At the top of the page it will give the closest match. At the top of the page is where you enter the hex color as well. You can get the hex color of any part of image with image software.
 
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#824
Parkerizing- The Color Contenders...

a.) #7c7f6c:

The hexadecimal color code #7c7f6c is a shade of yellow-green.
In the RGB color model #7c7f6c is comprised of 48.63% red, 49.8% green and 42.35% blue.
In the HSL color space #7c7f6c has a hue of 69.47 degrees, 8.09% saturation and 46.08% lightness.
This color has an approximate wavelength of 576 nm.
Ford Gray is a matching paint color.

b.) #78766a

The hexadecimal color code #78766a is a shade of yellow.
In the RGB color model #78766a is comprised of 47.06% red, 46.27% green and 41.57% blue.
In the HSL color space #78766a has a hue of 51.43 degrees, 6.19% saturation and 44.31% lightness.
This color has an approximate wavelength of 588 nm.

Note: #78766a is one (1) step off of "Camouflage Green" #78766b:

The color Camouflage green with hexadecimal color code #78866b is a shade of green.
In the RGB color model #78866b is comprised of 47.06% red, 52.55% green and 41.96% blue.
In the HSL color space #78866b has a hue of 91.11 degrees, 11.2% saturation and 47.25% lightness.
This color has an approximate wavelength of 563 nm.

c.) #78775a

The hexadecimal color code #78775a is a shade of yellow.
In the RGB color model #78775a is comprised of 47.06% red, 46.67% green and 35.29% blue.
In the HSL color space #78775a has a hue of 58 degrees, 14.29% saturation and 41.18% lightness. This color has an approximate wavelength of 583 nm.

d.) #807a67

The hexadecimal color code #807a67 is a shade of yellow.
In the RGB color model #807a67 is comprised of 50.2% red, 47.84% green and 40.39% blue.
In the HSL color space #807a67 has a hue of 45.6 degrees, 10.82% saturation and 45.29% lightness. This color has an approximate wavelength of 591 nm.

Entering a generalized description of 'Gray Green,' instead of a number (for giggles,) yielded the following:

e.) #75816b

The hexadecimal color code #75816b is a shade of green.
In the RGB color model #75816b is comprised of 45.88% red, 50.59% green and 41.96% blue.
In the HSL color space #75816b has a hue of 92.73 degrees, 9.32% saturation and 46.27% lightness.
This color has an approximate wavelength of 562 nm.
BS381 283 - Aircraft grey green is a matching paint color.

Is it possible that we can see color 'blocks,' of the above colors, next to each other, for comparitive purposes?
 
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#825
The best example of the 'green' parkerized tint is rifle #6257259. Against the black hardware, we can see that the tint is quite strong. And it is a close match to the swatch 'culpeper' posted and the M1D finish posted by 'bolt_trash'.




29850d1392170987-m40-build-guide-7c7f6c.jpg

THEGREEN_Parkerizing_zps42aa1076.jpg
 
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#827
MescaBug said:
The best example of the 'green' parkerized tint is rifle #6257259. Against the black hardware, we can see that the tint is quite strong. And it is a close match to the swatch 'culpeper' posted and the M1D finish posted by 'bolt_trash'.




29850d1392170987-m40-build-guide-7c7f6c.jpg

THEGREEN_Parkerizing_zps42aa1076.jpg
Click to expand...

I look at that color swatch and I see... a gray... when compared to barrel color on M40 # 6257259. It's just not carrying enough 'green,' in the content.

NOTE: I amended my previous post #839, to include the new color #807a67, to keep everything in one (1) place and to compare color content and percentage ratios. [/B][/U]

I will note that #807a67 and #78766a both share a close relationship, on the color scale, with 78766b "Camouflage Green."

As a matter of debate, #75816b visually 'appears' very close/even closer to the color of the M1D.

IMO, the 'green' component is going to be around 50 percent of the ratios, just to overcome a dominate 'gray' appearance.

Is there any chance that we can see side-by-side large color swatches?

On their individual pages, there is only a small/thin isolated color 'bar' in the upper right-hand corner and subsequent views are 'blended' and in immediate proximity to their color variants.
 
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#828
On a comical note this is what Marine armorers think about the original state of a sniper rifle. See attached image.
 

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#830
Culpeper said:
This is another shot at that M40 rifle. It has the obvious green your looking for.

#78775a Hex Color Code Schemes, Charts, Palettes, Paints & RGB / CMYK / HSL Conversion
Click to expand...

How do those color mix percentages work? They don't add up to 100%. If they actually provide mix ratios, and can duplicate the color I want.
ETA: Forget it, I see its a typo in the description, but the ratios are too the left in the pane lower on the screen. Cool.

ETA again: Still confused. I expect ratios to add up to 100%, but I'm obviously missing something. With RYB, do I rework the percentages based on 100%? It easier to work with these base colors than to work with RGB, since green is a compound color itself.

RYB red: 35.6998%, yellow: 47.0588%, blue: 35.2941%
 
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#831
Guys,

Even if a good gunsmith find the right coloration mix for a parkerizing job, dont forget that no one will be able to match a 40 years old patina. Overtime (storage, grease) can turn parkerizing to a greenish hue.

Its a long time chemical process. Some Garand experts have been able to add a chemical to the mix to accelerate that process. Apparently, it is also possible to approximate that hue by soaking a freshly black parkerized part in a high-sulfur oil, cutting oils and/or Penzoil.
 
#833
Culpeper said:
This is another shot at that M40 rifle. It has the obvious green your looking for.

#78775a Hex Color Code Schemes, Charts, Palettes, Paints & RGB / CMYK / HSL Conversion
Click to expand...

NOTE: I amended my previous post #839, to include the new color #78775a, to keep everything in one (1) place and to compare color content and percentage ratios.

Just might be...

Interesting that the red and green ratios are closer to 'balanced,' (as they are in 78766a) but the blue is substantially lower; making blue a more crucial component. Who'da thunk...:p

And, once again, this color, shows a close relationship with #78766b, "Camouflage Green."

This is a quest and establishing (finding-?) the optimum (not saying 'perfect') chemical formula and process is the goal. You do realize, that this is the first time that this topic has been pursued and researched, at any length.
 
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#835
MescaBug said:
Guys,

Even if a good gunsmith find the right coloration mix for a parkerizing job, dont forget that no one will be able to match a 40 years old patina. Overtime (storage, grease) can turn parkerizing to a greenish hue.

Its a long time chemical process. Some Garand experts have been able to add a chemical to the mix to accelerate that process. Apparently, it is also possible to approximate that hue by soaking a freshly black parkerized part in a high-sulfur oil, cutting oils and/or Penzoil.
Click to expand...

Yep, couldn't agree more on patina, scratches, dings, etc. Its what makes the rifle unique.
 
#836
Bolt_Trash said:
NOTE: I amended my previous post #839, to include the new color #78775a, to keep everything in one (1) place and to compare color content and percentage ratios.

Just might be...

Interesting that the red and green ratios are closer to 'balanced,' (as they are in 78766a) but the blue is substantially lower; making blue a more crucial component. Who'da thunk...:p

And, once again, this color, shows a close relationship with #78766b, "Camouflage Green."

This is a quest and establishing (finding-?) the optimum (not saying 'perfect') chemical formula and process is the goal. You do realize, that this is the first time that this topic has been pursued and researched, at any length.
Click to expand...

From your perspective I would be looking at the Federal Standard color that is most cloesly related. Federal standard is the standard for federal GSA procurement. If there is specification between Remington and the USMC it would have been based on this standard. This standard is included with the various paint manufactures at the bottom of the color page. I would also add what we are experimenting with is no different than taking a paint chip to the local auto paint store and saying you want a can of this color in lacquer or enamel. They would scan it and go from there.
 
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#840
Hey, that is so cool. You're so lucky.

1. what is the story on the rifle find?
2. What barrel is mounted?
3. Which stock did you choose and did you have trouble with the in-letting?
4. I never heard of bisonite bedding. What is that?
4. How many pounds is that trigger set at?
 
#841
Hey, that is so cool. You're so lucky.

1. what is the story on the rifle find?
2. What barrel is mounted?
3. Which stock did you choose and did you have trouble with the in-letting?
4. I never heard of bisonite bedding. What is that?
4. How many pounds is that trigger set at?

I just now noticing the serial numbers on the scope, base, and receiver. The receiver is black. That is Corps for ya. :)
 
#842
Hey Culpeper, this is the M700 BAH finished for me. It's been several years of collecting parts. I've just recently gotten back in the states and looking forward to getting down to Quantico to pic it up.
BAH has built several guns for me over the past year and a half. A1,A5, and a CQBP as well as this one.
He does amazing work and his attention to detail is just amazing.

BAH stated most of the Specs. the Stock is a Silver Hill (which I wish I would have waited since I ended up locating an original take off). And as most have noticed with these stock's...It was a complete MESS. If I had to put a percentage on the inletting I feel comfortable in saying it was "maybe" 60% inletted. as well as the outer portion of the stock not even close. I spent approx. 7hrs. of work sanding measuring, comparing, and more sanding and measuring....just on the outer portion of the stock.
The amount of work done on the inletting in order to make is ready for bedding was rediculous according to BAH...to the point where he said he wouldn't do another...lolol. When all said and done it came out amazing!
The barrel is an actual M700 take off (it is worn but gauged close to a 1). I ended up locating and purchasing barrel, 40X bases and sets of 1-64 marked rings all together from the same person.
The stock was bedded with Basonite which is one of the materials that the 12's used to bed the wooden stocks in that era.
I located a few references to it in "One Round War". I had no idea. This was compound was researched and located by BAH. Just another example of the Attention to detail he put into it for me.
The Acurange is a story within its self. I ill explain in another post with other pictures. Almost as if it was meant for me to have it built.
In regards to the color of the receiver. It's not black. It is Parked grey. Just looks real dark in that particular picture because of the lighting as well as the barrel has a considerable amount of finish wear closer to the lug. This makes it appear to be much darker. The receiver color is closer to the color of the barrel closer to the muzzle. I didnt want him to re park the barrel as I wanted to leave most of the parts in their original condition.
Probably would have looked better esthetically if we had done all the parts but I wanted to leave them original.
 
#843
M40 Build Guide

Cool. I just about pissed in my pants when I opened up the original size of the image and noticed the U.S., serial numbers and so forth. I also appreciate the way you all call it "M700". That got my attention.
 
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#848
scatsob said:
There is an M40 take off barrel on gunbroker right now for the bargain price of $1100. Not my auction.
Click to expand...

Looks like a genuine M40 barrel. Original barrels were make in-house @ Remington. No markings (Remington Arms bla bla bla) like the Varmint Specials. Only the proofing and testing marks.

Nice piece of history right there. I dont think I've ever seen one for sale. And I bet we will never see another one again...
 
#849
I agree it is a very nice piece of history. I was being half facetious, it is worth every penny but it's still a dang lot of money for a barrel :). It would be cool if we could get the barrels the pull from the M40A1's too.
 
#850
Even if it looks legit, I would be cautious, and wouldnt pay that kind of money without a certificate of authenticity. I know a shop who does roll marks on steel tubing, believe me, they can replicate anything and nobody would be able to tell the difference.

Assuming it is 100% genuine, I wonder if its a take-off from an actual M40 rifle, or a NOS barrel that was never mated to an action?
 
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