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308 Winchester AR Only
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
NO.
Maybe close in burn rate but not the same. Western Powders has a free downloadable reloading manual for their powders.
Mike
Also , if you want go to compare the two 4064's as well as the other AA powders suitable for the 308 against the IMR powders go to the Hodgdon site and compare the different powders with the same Wt. bullets.
Yes, I'm aware of the online reloading data. I was simply asking based on the numbers for the product.
Thanks!
I'm not looking for a way to spend MORE money. So buying powder for a scientific experiment is not part
of my plan. If you guys don't mind, I am fine with learning from those who came before me and did the
research. I get the idea for loading for MY BARREL/S. Perhaps when the powders I have get depleated and replaced.
I will see what recipes and starting points I get here work for me. So . . . in conclusion . . . I promise to stand
squarley in the middle of the road and when I find something that works. There will be no need to fix it . . .
just do it. Smile.
Thanks!
Shot this today at 100.
Diamondback DB-10 .308 Win. 18" x 1:10
FC brass.
CCI #34
168 gr SMK.
CFE-223: 5 rounds @ 47.1 gr. (Hodgdon site shows 49.0 MAX)
CBTO: 2.246"/COAL: approx. 2.870" (max I can fit in my C Products Defense magazine)
1.25" C to C, 1.19 MOA
Diagonal stringing is kind of weird... I don't have an anti-cant level and I was shooting off of a front and rear bag. I was also breaking my hold to check each piece of brass for pressure.
Not a big fan of Federal brass... And even less fond of running it in a gas gun. But the rifle seems to like it... Go figure.
The numbers were better when I first tested this combo at 47.8 - 48.0... But I was getting ejector swipes and pretty flat primers. This load at 47.1 had a bit more spread and only cost me about 20 fps in velocity... With no real pressure signs.
It ain't nothing for the Hall of Fame... And it needs a bit more tweaking and tuning. But it's damn good for this rifle... Which I usually refer to as "cursed."
Mike
Diamondback DB-10 .308 Win. 18" x 1:10
FC brass.
CCI #34
168 gr SMK.
CFE-223: 5 rounds @ 47.1 gr. (Hodgdon site shows 49.0 MAX)
CBTO: 2.246"/COAL: approx. 2.870" (max I can fit in my C Products Defense magazine)
1.25" C to C, 1.19 MOA
Diagonal stringing is kind of weird... I don't have an anti-cant level and I was shooting off of a front and rear bag. I was also breaking my hold to check each piece of brass for pressure.
Not a big fan of Federal brass... And even less fond of running it in a gas gun. But the rifle seems to like it... Go figure.
The numbers were better when I first tested this combo at 47.8 - 48.0... But I was getting ejector swipes and pretty flat primers. This load at 47.1 had a bit more spread and only cost me about 20 fps in velocity... With no real pressure signs.
It ain't nothing for the Hall of Fame... And it needs a bit more tweaking and tuning. But it's damn good for this rifle... Which I usually refer to as "cursed."
Mike
So I had similar accuracy with cfe223 in 308. Aproxamatly one moa to 1 1/8 was best I could get. It's a viable option.
First tests with varget went below one moa.
Since you started at max coal I would start backing it down 0.003 thousands at a time.
That stringing is probably barrel harmonics.
When I do death depth tests at 3 thousands I can watch scatter, vertical and horizontal stringing.
Eventually the group will find a round spot and 168 smk has no problem with a jump.
I think most of my Sierra bullets are jumping 0.040 range.
First tests with varget went below one moa.
Since you started at max coal I would start backing it down 0.003 thousands at a time.
That stringing is probably barrel harmonics.
When I do death depth tests at 3 thousands I can watch scatter, vertical and horizontal stringing.
Eventually the group will find a round spot and 168 smk has no problem with a jump.
I think most of my Sierra bullets are jumping 0.040 range.
2.905" OAL was touching the lands last time I checked. So right now my jump is around .035" So I will definitely start moving back in .003 increments and see if it starts to behave better.
Going back through past records my best groups with this gun were with CFE-223. Which is weird... Every other gun I've tried it in I only got velocity, never anything significant group wise... Normally I wouldn't call this a good group, but for this rifle, it is.
I have 4 lbs. of Varget sitting in my reloading room. Never have cracked the lid on any of the jugs... I have wondered if it would work well. Truth be told I'm a bit "scared" to let that genie out of the bottle... I don't want to be dependent on it with it's current availability. Lol.
But Varget's temp stability would definitely be a plus.
The 18" barrel is pretty limiting. I have considered getting a longer barrel... Perhaps even shelling out the cash for a "match" barrel.
This gun has been disappointing from the get-go... I would have sold it long ago but it was a Christmas gift from my wife so I feel a bit of a burden of obligation there.
Anyway, I'll see if playing with seating depth and/or switching to Varget will make it better.
Mike
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I know 0.003 seating depth change sounds ridiculous for an ar but I have started to do all my testing with 3 shots.
It saves on time and supplies.
I tried hundreds of cfe rounds to get to the near moa load and could not better it. But I think you can round out that string.
It is now my backup load if varget runs out.
Good luck .
It saves on time and supplies.
I tried hundreds of cfe rounds to get to the near moa load and could not better it. But I think you can round out that string.
It is now my backup load if varget runs out.
Good luck .
I have one ar in 223 that is on it's third barrel. It is the only one that has got past .9 moa and it has went to sub 1/2 with a couple different rounds.
It's a barrel lottery, eventually you get a good one. Don't give up on the future family heirloom rifle on the first barrel.
It's a barrel lottery, eventually you get a good one. Don't give up on the future family heirloom rifle on the first barrel.
Well, I tried it. Backed off from the 2.246" CBTO in .003" increments. Problem was that I only had 18 pieces of brass prepped. So I did 6 groups of 3.
It didn't go well at first... It went back to printing 2 in the same hole then throwing a flier an inch or more away.
Until the last 3 @ 2.231"
If I did the math right it's about .4 moa... If it will repeat that consistently I would be thrilled... I'm sure it won't. But I'll be satisfied if it prints at .8 consistently.
Mike
So I made a mistake at the store I generally buy powder and picked up Imr-4198, intending to get Imr-4895. Went and took a gander at some load data and noticed 110 grain loads using this powder.
Snagged a box of 110 vmaxes, after a few tests working up low looking for pressure. I got up to 39.7 Gr at 2.740 OAL in IMI ball brass.
Went and shot it out to 610 yards today recorded my dopes and in 4dof a muzzle velocity of 2950 (16” barrel)lined up pretty well with my dopes, so assume I am some where in that neighbor hood.
2 at 118yards into a wet target to confirm poi.
5 shots at 360.
For reference. Group is stringing vertically at around 1 moa.
Recorded dope for the day.
I am used to shooting much slower heavies, these 110’s friggin zip!
QUESTION- Curious what I should do to get the vertical out of it?? Kinda liking these things for 4-500 yards and in.
Also shot some 178’s @42.4gr imr-4064, 2.855 oal. Fc-308 brass.
5 round group circled in red at 230y. Around 1 MOA.
The impacts out side the circle were another load that didnt do as well.
Had a dead center Impact at 1030, but didnt wana walk the Mile to get a picture of it, wet clay, no thanks...
Shot with a POF Revolution. Just wanted to share loads and results.
Snagged a box of 110 vmaxes, after a few tests working up low looking for pressure. I got up to 39.7 Gr at 2.740 OAL in IMI ball brass.
Went and shot it out to 610 yards today recorded my dopes and in 4dof a muzzle velocity of 2950 (16” barrel)lined up pretty well with my dopes, so assume I am some where in that neighbor hood.
2 at 118yards into a wet target to confirm poi.
5 shots at 360.
For reference. Group is stringing vertically at around 1 moa.
Recorded dope for the day.
I am used to shooting much slower heavies, these 110’s friggin zip!
QUESTION- Curious what I should do to get the vertical out of it?? Kinda liking these things for 4-500 yards and in.
Also shot some 178’s @42.4gr imr-4064, 2.855 oal. Fc-308 brass.
5 round group circled in red at 230y. Around 1 MOA.
The impacts out side the circle were another load that didnt do as well.
Had a dead center Impact at 1030, but didnt wana walk the Mile to get a picture of it, wet clay, no thanks...
Shot with a POF Revolution. Just wanted to share loads and results.
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Went and played with seating depth and think I narrowed down a range using the 110 vmaxes. Went from 2.163 bto(2.740 oal) to 2.129. 29 did not cycle correctly and damaged tip, so did not contine shooting it, but definitely look like it was going to string horizontally.
The 63 was the same load from last post and its still stringing vertically. Found a spot around 54 and between 45 and 40 that seem to merit more attention.
Odd watching how the seating depth affects the groups.
Also played with the 178 ELD’s. Decided to try a hotter load seems 43.6-43.8 is showing some potential.
Going to play with the seating depth and see if I can tighten it up. That low right impact on the 43.6 charge I am calling as me pulling it. There are 3 right in there at 1/2”
43.4 looks like shit!
The 63 was the same load from last post and its still stringing vertically. Found a spot around 54 and between 45 and 40 that seem to merit more attention.
Odd watching how the seating depth affects the groups.
Also played with the 178 ELD’s. Decided to try a hotter load seems 43.6-43.8 is showing some potential.
Going to play with the seating depth and see if I can tighten it up. That low right impact on the 43.6 charge I am calling as me pulling it. There are 3 right in there at 1/2”
43.4 looks like shit!
I see an OAL of 2.855 with the 178 ELD's , is that correct , what magazines and how much of a compressed load is is the 43.6 of I 4064 ? Did I miss what AR you are using ?
Just measured , my Armalite Mags will accept 2.855 BUT the RRA mags can only take a couple of "curly's" past 2.800
Just measured , my Armalite Mags will accept 2.855 BUT the RRA mags can only take a couple of "curly's" past 2.800
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No
Federal Gold Match and M118LR use IMR 4064 and Fed 210M primers with Sierra MK.
The old M852 used IMR 4895.
Oal was 2.863 ish on all the 178 ELD loads. Bto was 2.230. Fc-308 brass, range pick ups. Using a modified pro mag that I can load to 2.870. Going to toy with seating depth next.
Yes its compressed, how much... ??? Good question. Not enough to upset seating. Primers are still round, but its slightly over gassed. I am thinking about drilling out the suppressor holes on my gas plug to see if I can slow down cycling with these hotter loads. I don’t have a suppressor and if I get one I’ll just buy another gas plug. Getting minor ejector smear.
Rifle is a POF piston driven Revolution. Atlas v8 bipod, Vortex viper 3x15.
Btw... what really surprises me is how well those 110’s Shoot! Hardly any recoil. And Flat!
Federal Gold Medal uses IMR 4064 in both 168gr and 175 MK loading the same as the military loaded M118LR which is also loaded by Federal .
Yes the old M852 load used IMR 4985 as well as M72 30-06 match of the past. The military dropped the 168gr load years ago to go only with the 175gr M118LR in the 308 Win.
In my 308 Win I still like the load before IMR 4064 which was Reloader 15 and I like 45.0 with 165gr. Still a Reloader 15 Fan but maybe too hot for AR platform.
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No sir. It’s proprietary. Pull one. You’ll see it’s not all 4064 in it. Long grain, medium grain and almost ball
I have some black tip AP bullets that I would like to load into some LC 7.62x51 cases. Does anyone have load data for this?
How many do you have? If plenty? Then load develop them. If not? Go with 42.5 gr 4064 and send em
Open up a 168gr FGMM. It is not strictly 4064. Maybe 15 yrs ago? But I bought a new box and it certainly wasn’t. It’s a mix of almost ball, medium and long stick. And it’s not cause of the crush
That is not M118 load data card. It is the newer, Navy Mk 316 MOD 0 using IMR 4064. The DODIC- AB39 is for that ammo. M118 was loaded with a couple of different powders over the years. The older M118 L/R load loaded with Reloader 15 and had pressure issues in the Desert. The DODIC for that load was AA11.
This was pointed out in another thread by j-dubya post # 16 : https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...n-military-7-62-m118lr.7169422/#post-10851392
This was pointed out in another thread by j-dubya post # 16 : https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...n-military-7-62-m118lr.7169422/#post-10851392
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This is after Federal received the contract.
I don’t even think they produce M118 any more.
IMR 4895/ WC 750.
I really liked RL 15 over the years in the 308 Win
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I've used a fair amount of Re-15 in the 308. I will NEVER buy it again. I've tested 8208, AR Comp, H-4895 and Varget in my 4 308's, 2 gas guns and 2 bolt guns. Any of those are my preferred powder in the 308 with 155's, 168's and 175-8's. Re-15 is temp sensitive enough for me in my climate conditions to discontinue it's use. Re-15 is no less expensive than any of the powders I listed, so out it goes. I'll probably use the last 1.5#'s of it in some 223, 69-77 gr. loads.
I haven't tried the new Staball Match, don't know if I ever will since I bought many pounds of the listed powders before the last Covid crunch. I've probably got a decades worth.
I saw the new Re-15.5, but what I've read about it, It's not really suited for the 308 due to it being a bit slower than Re-15. Too bad Alliant didn't come out with a Re-13 or 14 in a less temp sensitive offering. I do remember using Re-12 many years ago in the 308, it was about the same a 4895, worked pretty good. Norma still makes it as N-202.
I haven't tried the new Staball Match, don't know if I ever will since I bought many pounds of the listed powders before the last Covid crunch. I've probably got a decades worth.
I saw the new Re-15.5, but what I've read about it, It's not really suited for the 308 due to it being a bit slower than Re-15. Too bad Alliant didn't come out with a Re-13 or 14 in a less temp sensitive offering. I do remember using Re-12 many years ago in the 308, it was about the same a 4895, worked pretty good. Norma still makes it as N-202.
Norma 203-B is the powder but is almost identical to Reloader 15 grain for grain and performance.
The Reloader 15 kinda got a bad wrap in Afghanistan going from low altitude to high ridge altitude and different temps. Also the original load was for bolt guns was too hot for older gas guns. They reduced the load and eventually changed contractors to Fed for production.
I still like RL 15 but really performs well at max charges 45.0 with 175gr. Now RL 15 is almost impossible to fine here .
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Norma 203B is almost identical to Reloader 15 grain for grain. Excellent with 168gr and 175gr in 308 Win. My favorite is 45.4 with 168gr.
Norma 202 works great with lighter bullets 150gr in 308 Win a great powder that was very similar to Reloader 12.
Norma 202 works great with lighter bullets 150gr in 308 Win a great powder that was very similar to Reloader 12.
The new MK318 load from Federal that replaced the LC ATK RL 15 Alliant load was IMR 4064 @ 41.745 with Fed 210M primer and FC military brass documentation shows. 2.810”
In my current powder lot of IMR 4064 indeed 42.3 duplicates the MK 318 Mod 0 load.
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I use W748 with 165gr Fail Safe @ 45.0 in 308 win.
Used as WC750 powder then sold to public as W748 was widely used in M852 for short while until going to IMR 4985 in M852.
I have a good load with 165gr FS and W748 but this powder will never replace my 4895/4064/RL15/Varget in 308 Win bolt
I never had issues with it but H4895 was my favorite for service rifle loads
With the powder crunch I have been using TAC for my 308 plinker loads, 42 grains LC brass 150gr bullets.
My point of not buying RE-15 again is related with it's poor temperature sensitivity. I had good luck with it. I have a couple of #'s left and I'll use it up. RE-15 is just as expensive to buy as other powders like Varget, H-4895, 8208 XBR, & AR Comp which are much less temperature sensitive. Why buy a temperature sensitive powder when there are better alternatives out there for the same price? If it was a lot less expensive, I could see it, but it's not.
In the last few years, I've stocked up well on the powders I listed. Glad I did so, those powders are like Unicorn dust right now.
In the last few years, I've stocked up well on the powders I listed. Glad I did so, those powders are like Unicorn dust right now.
Anyone tried the new 6.5 staball match in .308? I bought some yesterday for a different project, but hope it's good for 308 because my "local" powder supplier has a bunch of it.
I think it's more like a h4350 type powder. There is another "STABALL" that is for 223 and 308.
Yeah it’s not called 6.5 Staball Match. That’s 2 different powders.
6.5 Staball is as you said closer to H4350.
Staball Match is what nchilbily was asking about & yes it works.
I haven’t formed an opinion yet. Shot 5 at 4 different charges with 168smk @2.8 from an 18” Proof 45.6 - 46.8. The top charge is book max & that book max was not at all conservative.
The best 5 shot 100y group was 46.4 @.700” speed on that was 2612. SD sucked but I think that was because I had 2 different Black Hills head stamps mixed together.
For reference I shot 5 factory loaded FGMM168 & they went 2516 SD 9.3 the wierd thing is that I have data from a different batch of 168 FGMM that was 2620 avg over 20 rounds. Tje was in this same barrel & only 60rounds prior to this.
So at min the Staball Match achieved the same velocity as the hotter factory loads.
I also tried 176 A-tips with Match at 45.6. Don’t do that! Way to hot. I’ll be trying it some more this weekend vs RL15.5 & Lever
You are correct. I was referring to staball match. From what I've read, it is supposed to be similar in burn rate to varget, which is my current "go-to" powder for 308. That stuff is like hen's teeth around here.
I’ve started working with AA2495 and 168 ELDMs. Looks very promising. Loaded 9 charge weights between 40.6-43.0. Only three shot groups, because I was just trying to eliminate bad loads and work from there. Seven of the nine were sub MOA. Five under 3/4 Moa. 41.5 is the first area I’ll be exploring. I’m expecting about 2580 from my 20” criterion barrel with that charge based on limited recoverable data from this trip. Between the bad sun angles, and low batteries in the chrono that day I had very few data points I trust. Fed brass, btw.
I've used 15.5 with 175 SMK's and getting 1MOA with it. 15.5 just likes a heavier bullet I think. 1 MOA is about the limit for the 20" Ballistics Advantage barrel. I just put on a new Krieger 24" and just waiting for a replacement barrel nut I managed to bugger up taking off the BA.
I just bought 2 lbs of Staball MAtch, precision rifle. I used in some .223 loads last week with 77gr SMK's and saw SD's of 4 in the initial test.
Only tested a couple of powder weights and got .7" group so far with a white oak 16" barrel. I have high hopes for the Staball/PR.
Going to try it with some 175ELD's on Friday.
M80 ammo dupe
LC brass 150fmj 42.5 TAC 2.75ish 2530fps 16” 716i
4x optic 20-30mph winds
Shoots exactly like some older win white box 308 I have that contained 41gr of powder
LC brass 150fmj 42.5 TAC 2.75ish 2530fps 16” 716i
4x optic 20-30mph winds
Shoots exactly like some older win white box 308 I have that contained 41gr of powder
