5.56 AR Only Loads

[jLorenzo]

View attachment 7863574View attachment 7863575This is a load post with some follow up questions as I’ve never really loaded for an semi auto gun:

Brass: Lapua 223 Match
Powder: 8208 XBR @ 23.3 gr.
Bullet: Berger 77 OTM
Primer: CCI BR4

Vel. - 2,666
SD - 10.2

First test group came in at .690 MOA, and subsequently produced 3 sub 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups. I’ll try and include a few pics.

Barrel is a 15.1” 1:7 mid-gas Douglas spun up by Frank at Compass Lake with their CLE chamber. Colt BCG.

A friend invited me to a DMR match, and having not shot a match and getting out of reloading since 2019 it was a scramble to get things ready.

A buddy hooked me up with 200 new Lapua cases, and the Berger’s. Another had the 8208 XBR, and I got lucky on the BR4’s local.

I trusted a friend I’ve shot with for years heavily on the initial load of 23.3 grains, and I believe they were loaded to 2.255” OAL approx. I have the CBTO written down somewhere I’ll find later. First 5 shots were .690 MOA, no pressure signs on the brass. A few more test groups and we just went with it on the subsequent 180 rounds for the match.

I do know he used a light crimp also.

Now comes the question segment. I used a Hornady comparator and got a shoulder measurement over a pieces of 1.4560 and then fired shoulder of 1.4620. So it’s growing .006” in my chamber.

In my old PRS rifle I always FL sized with .002”shoulder bump. What would everyone suggest in this instance? I was thinking.004” bump to be safe, or should I go back to the original virgin brass shoulder length and size .006”? Is this working the brass too much? I know brass life with a AR is going to be terrible. Long term I’ll try and source some stat line 5.56, but short term the Lapua was an overly nice means to an end.

I plan to anneal them, as in always did with bolt guns. Trim if necessary.

I bump my gas brass .003 to .004. I clean the chamber after each session though. I wouldn't count out Lake City brass, Ive got some pretty great life out it and it can be pretty consistent. Ive heard mixed reviews on the Starline. They make a 223 and 556 brass that are different from each other.

 

[jLorenzo]

.....try it with your existing equipment first, if it works good, if not...determine WHAT specifically isn't working then buy accordingly. Understand with gassers shoulder bump is just as important as in a bolt, but typically a little more is given for gassers due to variations in mags, chambers, etc.

..three of the most common problems encountered are (1) Case web not sufficiently sized down, (2) not enough shoulder bump, and (3) bullets not seated properly to avoid jamming into the lands. If the case web issue is encountered, the RCBS AR series dies are "full length, small base" dies and typically take care of that issue. YMMV

How do you know the if case web isn't sufficiently sized?

 

[r.tenorio671]

How do you know the if case web isn't sufficiently sized?

...assuming that the shoulder bump is sufficient, trim length is sufficient and the bullet seating depth is sufficient so the bullets ogive is not "jamming" into the leade/lands, if the loaded round still won't chamber, then it most likely is a good indicator that the case web hasn't been sized back down to SAAMI spec. This also assumes the chamber is compliant with SAAMI specs for .223 Remington or 5.56 NATO.

....a good tool for checking resized cases is one of Sheridan Engineering's "Slotted Case Gauge" as it allows you to check sized brass for trim length, shoulder bump and case web....all in a single glance, before adding primer, powder & bullet. The gauges are cut with SAAMI reamers, to SAAMI "MIN" spec. If a sized case will fit in the gauge, it will fit in a SAAMI chamber. Granted, EVERY barrel is different, but you can use this gauge to ensure the casing/loaded cartridge will fit in your chamber for firing. You can re-measure the now fire-formed case to make any adjustments you desire.

223 Remington Ammunition Gauge

Choose between SLOTTED or NON-SLOTTED. AMMUNITION GAUGES are uniquely designed to check loaded ammunition, giving you the ability to check your factory ammunition or reloads against a spec chamber. The gauge is machined to the SAAMI minimum chamber spec for the 223 REM caliber.…

sheridanengineering.com

 

[flyfisher117]

Life and the weather finally aligned and I got to do some load development done today. You guys weren't lying the 77 otms and 8208xbr is a sweet combo. Seemed like the higher I climbed in the charge the tighter it shot.

 

[Desert_Racer]

Life and the weather finally aligned and I got to do some load development done today. You guys weren't lying the 77 otms and 8208xbr is a sweet combo. Seemed like the higher I climbed in the charge the tighter it shot.

What brass are you using? When did you see pressure?

 

[flyfisher117]

What brass are you using? When did you see pressure?

I didn't see pressure but stopped at 23.5. I didn't want to push it too far until I can get my hands on Starline cases and do some tests in true summer Temps.

Currently running same head stamp LC brass sorted by case volume. They were hold overs from my .223 bolt gun before I switched it to Lapua.

 

[semperfireloading]

Using Berger 77 OTM and 23.5 of XBR, you are over 60,000 PSI and probably near ~2780-2820 FPS out of a 20" barrel. Your load? Is high pressure.

Lets see, Bergers latest load data official says MAX charge using that bullet at 2.260, is 21.8 grains. You are almost 8% more than that.

If I was to guess, id say you are at 60,000-63,000 PSI.

 

[flyfisher117]

Using Berger 77 OTM and 23.5 of XBR, you are over 60,000 PSI and probably near ~2780-2820 FPS out of a 20" barrel. Your load? Is high pressure.

Lets see, Bergers latest load data official says MAX charge using that bullet at 2.260, is 21.8 grains. You are almost 8% more than that.

If I was to guess, id say you are at 60,000-63,000 PSI.

Yes I'm aware it is hot. Which is why I worked up to it, but didn't stay at 23.5. I backed off that.

The 2 sources of data I have is 23.2 grains max at 55k.

 

[Desert_Racer]

Berger’s load data is also likely for .223, not 5.56 pressures. Not a single reloading manual I have publishes 5.56 data, just .223.

There are a lot of people running 23.0 to 23.4gr of xbr with great success in LC brass. I’ve run all the way up to 23.8 out of my Mk12Mod0, but it was too hot for shorter barrels/gas systems, and on the edge in an 18” barrel with rifle length gas.

23.2gr of XBR under a 77smk in LC brass has worked well for me in multiple rifles.

 

[max1840]

Berger’s load data is also likely for .223, not 5.56 pressures. Not a single reloading manual I have publishes 5.56 data, just .223.

There are a lot of people running 23.0 to 23.4gr of xbr with great success in LC brass. I’ve run all the way up to 23.8 out of my Mk12Mod0, but it was too hot for shorter barrels/gas systems, and on the edge in an 18” barrel with rifle length gas.

23.2gr of XBR under a 77smk in LC brass has worked well for me in multiple rifles.

Accurate Arms (western Powders) lists 5.56 x 45 data but only for their powders.

 

[semperfireloading]

Yes I'm aware it is hot. Which is why I worked up to it, but didn't stay at 23.5. I backed off that.

The 2 sources of data I have is 23.2 grains max at 55k.

For Berger 77 OTM, there is no source that lists 23.2 as max. This is for 77 SMK, which a little under 1" in length bullet. The berger OTM 77 is ~1.026. This is way longer, and thus, more pressure. Bullet length is main factor in load data, not weight.

So if Berger's load data is not correct, and 21.8 is not max. which max = SAAMI standards, of course, which is 55k PSI. So Berger is saying 21.8 is near 55k PSI. This is clear. Load data is generated and rounded down to whatever charge within .1 is "under" SAAMI max.

However, I believe the Berger 77 OTM hits 55k PSI around ~22.8-23.0 grains at max OAL. If you look at 75 grain JLK VLD, its 1.050 long, and the 77 SMK is a tiny bit under 1". The Berger 77 OTM is almost right in the middle of these 2 bullet lengths. Thus load data will be in between, with same OAL.

75 grain JLK VLD 22.7 max @ 2.250
77 grain SMK 23.2 max @ 2.260

Gordons reloading tool, and QL both support what I am saying.

Thus, the Berger 77 OTM should be between 22.7 and 23.2, and probably 22.9 or 23.0 grains @ 55k PSI.

This is consistent with my testing, of thousands of rounds of Berger 77 OTM. Depending on the brass, this could vary like I said. If you use Starline 223 brass or a brass that weighs over 100 grains, it will be up there near 63k psi. If you use lighter brass with more capacity, it might be as low as ~57-58k PSI.

Shooting XBR in different temps more change this much as its very stable.

If there was 5.56 Nato reloading data for 8208 XBR, the maximum charge for 2.260 would probably be at very near 23.9 grains. If you shoot any "true" max 5.56 loads, the brass has marks, and burs, commonly. Use any of the Western Powders 5.56 max 5.56 load data, and you will see.

Starline 5.56 brass is very good, and has harder base, more tolerant to higher pressures. I hope this helps.

 

[jLorenzo]

What are you favorite powders for bulk 62gr blaster ammo?
Looking at Xterminator and Accurate 2230. Ive only every loaded 75+gr stuff so I'm new to the lighter bullets.

 

[towerofpower93]

What are you favorite powders for bulk 62gr blaster ammo?
Looking at Xterminator and Accurate 2230. Ive only every loaded 75+gr stuff so I'm new to the lighter bullets.

Whatever I can find 2-4 x 8lb kegs of the cheapest.

For blaster ammo (55gr, but 62gr ought to work with the same powders) I've mainly used BLC2 and Win 748, but there are so many powders which can work in that 50-62gr range I'd work out the cheapest per pound including shipping and HAZMAT and make a big purchase.

Not like temp insensitivity is a huge concern for blaster ammo, so why pay a premium.

 

[mtrmn]

What are you favorite powders for bulk 62gr blaster ammo?
Looking at Xterminator and Accurate 2230. Ive only every loaded 75+gr stuff so I'm new to the lighter bullets.

The 2 powders you named are identical and use the exact same data
Xterminator is often a bit cheaper than 2230 if you look around, but they are identical.

 

[jLorenzo]

The only thing I would like out of a blaster powder would be that it cleans up well. I have some BLC2, I'm going to try that. Xterminator is fairly cheap where I see it.

 

[Snuby642]

Today Hogden had some powders available. (Noon) I grabbed 8# of Tac.

Want to try it with 69g smk's.
I suppose it will work with 52-55g ?

 

[r.tenorio671]

What are you favorite powders for bulk 62gr blaster ammo?
Looking at Xterminator and Accurate 2230. Ive only every loaded 75+gr stuff so I'm new to the lighter bullets.

.... It really comes down to what is available and then working up a good load with that powder (or bullet, primer, casing, etc.)

 

[jLorenzo]

Today Hogden had some powders available. (Noon) I grabbed 8# of Tac.

Want to try it with 69g smk's.
I suppose it will work with 52-55g ?

Im seeing slightly higher velocitys listed for Tac and the M855 than Xterminator so I'm gonna try that before getting anything else.

 

[semperfireloading]

What are you favorite powders for bulk 62gr blaster ammo?
Looking at Xterminator and Accurate 2230. Ive only every loaded 75+gr stuff so I'm new to the lighter bullets.

My opinion is, for "blaster" powders, it makes sense to make it economical. So you would want to try for example, AA2200, IMR4198 or the cheapest powder you can buy in that "fast burning" category for 223. You want something with powder charge that cycles the gun around 19 grains.

 

[mtrmn]

Today Hogden had some powders available. (Noon) I grabbed 8# of Tac.

Want to try it with 69g smk's.
I suppose it will work with 52-55g ?

TAC works well with 55 gr fmj, have not tried it with anything lighter.

 

[Snuby642]

Thanks.
I bought a total of 10 pounds of the Tac without ever trying any.

These days I grab what I can when I can.

Now back to combat shopping for pistol primers.

 

[huntnh]

Tac works great for me I run the 68 grain hornady and 24 grains of tac shoots right around 3/4 moa and doesn’t break the bank

 

[Phil McGrath]

Bullet length is main factor in load data, not weight.

Too be clear, did you mean the bullets berring length and not it’s overall length in total?

 

[semperfireloading]

Too be clear, did you mean the bullets berring length and not it’s overall length in total?

Overall length translates into how far the bullet goes down into the case. That is a main contributing factor. Take for example, 77 SMK. Its about 1 inch long. Then take 50 grain frang from Federal, which is nearly the same length as 77SMK. Load data will be in ballpark for both.

 

[232593]

25.2 grains of Ramshot TAC
Lake City Brass
77 grain TMK
FED 205M primer
1.835 CBTOL
24” barrel factory Stag Arms Varminter
2910 fps
ES 19fps

 

[AR-180]

23.2gr of XBR under a 77smk in LC brass has worked well for me in multiple rifles.

This was the load I used to leg out. I’ve used it in numerous rifles. It’s an index load for a lot of guys in the high power world.

 

[XP1K]

I scrolled through several pages then skipped to the end so forgive me if I missed it.

Anybody shooting power pro 2000 in an ar ? I loaded up some 60gr vmax in pmc brass with 27.0gr of pp2000mr using Winchester small rifle primers running at 2,747fps, SD was 10.4 out of a 16" 1:8 with a wylde chamber.

Cases looked good but seemed a little on the slow side ?

 

[AR-180]

I scrolled through several pages then skipped to the end so forgive me if I missed it.

Anybody shooting power pro 2000 in an ar ? I loaded up some 60gr vmax in pmc brass with 27.0gr of pp2000mr using Winchester small rifle primers running at 2,747fps, SD was 10.4 out of a 16" 1:8 with a wylde chamber.

Cases looked good but seemed a little on the slow side ?

2000mr is a popular powder for rattle battle at Camp Perry

 

[Eurodriver]

I’m running 26.0gr of Xterminator over 55gr Berry’s FMJ as blasting ammo. I just load to the crimp and shoot. Easy to do with LC FL resized brass and relatively inexpensive.

I want to load up some fast 60gr SP for yotes and one thing I love about western powders is they have actual 5.56 data. I want to do some load development but the rifle I shoot is topped with thermal and with it getting dark at 9:30pm and over 102°F during the day it’s pretty difficult

 

[blbennett1288]

I might be barking up the wrong tree but figured I go ahead and ask...

I am at a cross roads wanting to run 224 bullets fast, specifically 75gr BTHP and 77gr SMK. I am unsure if I can get there in a 223 Wylde and was considering the 224 Valkyrie.

I have a 18" Douglas 1:7 223 CLE Chamber. Freedom Munitions 77gr SMK gets 2650fps, Frontier 75gr gets 2800fps, and my handload gets 2758fps

Virgin Lapua Brass
Federal 205 SRP
VV N140 24.7grs (compressed)
77gr SMK
COAL 2.275”
Average 2758fps SD 13.1fps ES 35fps

Am I crazy to think that with a 75gr and upgrading to a 22" barrel I might be able to get 2900fps?

I have the following powders available to try; IMR 4064, Varget, and VV N140

 

[xsn10s]

Today Hogden had some powders available. (Noon) I grabbed 8# of Tac.

Want to try it with 69g smk's.
I suppose it will work with 52-55g ?

I've used it with 50 BT's and zmax's. Mostly shot it with 55gr BT's. But right now I use it with 53gr vmax's. Biggest I've shot with it was a badger at 200 yards.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I might be barking up the wrong tree but figured I go ahead and ask...

I am at a cross roads wanting to run 224 bullets fast, specifically 75gr BTHP and 77gr SMK. I am unsure if I can get there in a 223 Wylde and was considering the 224 Valkyrie.

I have a 18" Douglas 1:7 223 CLE Chamber. Freedom Munitions 77gr SMK gets 2650fps, Frontier 75gr gets 2800fps, and my handload gets 2758fps

Virgin Lapua Brass
Federal 205 SRP
VV N140 24.7grs (compressed)
77gr SMK
COAL 2.275”
Average 2758fps SD 13.1fps ES 35fps

Am I crazy to think that with a 75gr and upgrading to a 22" barrel I might be able to get 2900fps?

I have the following powders available to try; IMR 4064, Varget, and VV N140

You should figure about 25 FPS per inch of barrel. I run a 24" barrel and a 20" barrel. The difference in velocity is 110ish FPS with a 77, and is very noticeable past 600.

Don't forget the 223AI. It will give you a 100+ FPS bump over the 223, and you don't have to change magazines or boltface.

 

[Dave62677]

The old published smk 69gr accuracy load with 18” Laure stealth barrel.

 

[jLorenzo]

I might be barking up the wrong tree but figured I go ahead and ask...

I am at a cross roads wanting to run 224 bullets fast, specifically 75gr BTHP and 77gr SMK. I am unsure if I can get there in a 223 Wylde and was considering the 224 Valkyrie.

I have a 18" Douglas 1:7 223 CLE Chamber. Freedom Munitions 77gr SMK gets 2650fps, Frontier 75gr gets 2800fps, and my handload gets 2758fps

Virgin Lapua Brass
Federal 205 SRP
VV N140 24.7grs (compressed)
77gr SMK
COAL 2.275”
Average 2758fps SD 13.1fps ES 35fps

Am I crazy to think that with a 75gr and upgrading to a 22" barrel I might be able to get 2900fps?

I have the following powders available to try; IMR 4064, Varget, and VV N140

Try 8208 XBR or something similar. 3000+ in my 26"

 

[jLorenzo]

23.5gr of 8208 is 2950 in my 26" bolt gun; 2800 in my 20" gas gun. And I wouldn't want to go much higher than that in a gas gun.

Im at 5,000+", was shooting 24.5 in my bolt gun. Brass lasted 2 firings. I forgot this was the gas gun thread honestly.

 

[357Max]

I haven’t read the entire thread.
Has anyone ever posted a case capacity comparison for various common 223 brass?? LC vs Starline etc.

Just got 500 of the Starline 5.56 & curious if I’d need to back down from LC loads?

Thanks

 

[Belisarius]

I drop at least a grain from LC to Starline. I use cfe223 and tac.

 

[Snuby642]

I think case capacity increases with first firing in virgine brass.

 

[blbennett1288]

I think you would be hard pressed. A 22" .223AI would be cool to try out tho....

@reubenski Yeah, I have since went down the 224V and 6ARC rabbit hole. I am wanting to push 80-95gr projectiles 2900fps+ from a small frame gas gun.

 

[blbennett1288]

Try a 22 Grendel of you want to run 75's at 2900 - 3000 in a low pressure load. 3150 at high pressure. I think high pressure loads are rarely accurate in ARs. I think the accuracy problems Valkyrie and arc users have had has been because they're running them at the top edge. Most of your accuracy loads for 223 are 100 to 200 feet per second slower than the top end.

I kinda figured as much with high pressure loads and accuracy. I was certainly thinking being at the upper end would limit you significantly if you couldn’t get a certain bullet weight or charge to work; which is what led me away from 224V. You have to be at the upper end for the performance to be there.

6ARC is appealing since you can run 80-115gr; but the lack or factory ammo, and component availability has turned me off.

 

[Snuby642]

Well duh.

Waited for a couple weeks to get back on the range only to find an error that will need retested all over again.

To top it off laziness caused it but has proven a point besides not to be lazy.

The test was H335 / 25.2g in frontier range brass reconditioned with a 0.003 bump and 0.002 neck tension . Running 55g Bob's bullets with a slight crimp. 1.800 bto and nominal 2.25 coal.

Ar 20 inch barrel .


The first 9 shots told me I had messed up. Before moving to the dillon the best single stage shots were at tuner set to #1 and powder dropped at 25.3g.

The first 3 tests told me I had screwed up not tweeking that last tenth of a grain into the dillon.

Further cranking on the E C tuner quickly brought the test shots back into usefulness .

I could live with it but plan on cranking out many loads. The 25.3g loads tested were rounder.
So the powder drop will be fought with till 25.3g is consistant on 2 different scales. (Pita)

This test was done at 50 yards.

The thin grid squares are one inch.

The load is listed on the 8lb jug.

 

[jLorenzo]

Just got back from shooting this N133/52SMK OCW and its shot great. Excellent accuracy and velocity.

20" White Oak Precision
Bartlein 4G 1:7
223 Wylde

What is the name of that brass catcher?

 

[DAMNKID]

What is the name of that brass catcher?

You need the secret decoder mirror for that one lol

 

[Snuby642]

What is the name of that brass catcher?

Take a look at brass goat.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I don't even do load development for 77's anymore. 23.4gr of 8208 seems to shoot well in any barrel capable of shooting well.

I've got a bunch of 77gr smk coming that I just bought with the intention of finding a load that will shoot well in all of my AR's and hopefully in my bolt gun too. Any words of wisdom in my pursuit of this? I have A2520, imr4064, TAC, and Staball (wouldnt want to use my H4350 of course) all in a decent amount. I normally use TAC for my bolt gun 223 loads but it would be super nice to use the 4064 if I could but the 2520 and TAC are probably my best options. I could get more tac I'm pretty sure if that worked really well for this.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I've got a bunch of 77gr smk coming that I just bought with the intention of finding a load that will shoot well in all of my AR's and hopefully in my bolt gun too. Any words of wisdom in my pursuit of this? I have A2520, imr4064, TAC, and Staball (wouldnt want to use my H4350 of course) all in a decent amount. I normally use TAC for my bolt gun 223 loads but it would be super nice to use the 4064 if I could but the 2520 and TAC are probably my best options. I could get more tac I'm pretty sure if that worked really well for this.

The only one of those powders I've got experience with is TAC. I always got amazing velocities and what looked like potential for accuracy with it but always a flier in every group that ruined things. It's been a couple years since I've messed with it though, and I don't trust things I did last week much less in 2019, so I might give it a try again soon since I can't find any 8208.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

The only one of those powders I've got experience with is TAC. I always got amazing velocities and what looked like potential for accuracy with it but always a flier in every group that ruined things. It's been a couple years since I've messed with it though, and I don't trust things I did last week much less in 2019, so I might give it a try again soon since I can't find any 8208.

I've used TAC a bunch in my bolt gun and it's been fantastic. I have no problem shooting 5 shot groups in one hole with it. I haven't loaded much at all for AR's though. I was going to copy the BTO of the Berger 77 otm ammo and use a SMK bullet with somewhere around 23.3 ish grains of TAC and see if that would shoot well in all of my AR's. I should get good velocity but I'm not sure how to determine how much powder to use without going through all the crap with each gun to pressure check so I'm going to have to just stay low enough not to have to do that then just make sure it shoots safely when it's hot in each AR and then off to the races with making a few thousand rounds

 

[Snuby642]

Does the headspace closely match in your ar's ?

You could get an EC tuner brake to dial in loads on different ar's.

Edit: This load is still 0.1g low for this rifle due to the powder dispenser on the dillon being set wrong.

 

[357Max]

I’ll be working some loads with 77smk & tmk using 2520 & Vit N135. I tried XBR & I think my batch is hot, SD’s sucked.

I think this will apply to .223 also. Just did a neck tension test with .224 Valk, 80.5 Bergers & TS 15.5. This is an 18” AR

26.6 x 5 using a .222 mandrel gave 2778 SD 6.2
26.6 x 5 using a .221 mandrel gave 2777 SD 4.7

The 15.5 is usable in Valk, at modest velocities. The above is a clone of FGMM 80.5 loads.

Don’t bother with the 15.5 for 223. To bulky 25gr was a cram jam & gave 2650 with 77smk. It did shoot well, but down 100 from MK262.

 

[drglock]

Have any of you tried 73 ELD’s out of a 16” 1-7. I’ve got 400 I’d like to shoot through my Noveske.