I wanted those but they are impossible to find .I ran/run Berger 109s.
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I wanted those but they are impossible to find .I ran/run Berger 109s.
I used my 110 atip load with it. Same COTB, almost the same speed (50 fps slower). Shoots just as good as the 110 just with a lower bc Didn’t even change my zero.Anybody try the 109eldm in the 6creed yet?
Any insight?
This is an update to post #1,017... in case anyone is wondering, this is a good chunk of the "why/how" a barrel and load using a healthy bullet jump stays so consistent (boring) over its life...
I was having more issues than usual holding a tight group lately, so I started checking my rig looking for a reason as to why (I mean besides me sucking at shooting lol). This meant going over the whole rifle to verify that everything was torqued to spec (action screws, scope mount, etc) and then looking at the possibility that my throat had eroded to the point where my load needed to be tweaked or even maybe me having to work up a new load.
Well, turns out it wasn't the barrel/load (my trigger pull-weight had increased on its own, doubled in weight somehow).
That said, decided to check on my throat erosion: I use/recommend the Deep Creek Method to find one's lands using a dummy round made up of the same ingredients, same brass, same bullet, prepared exactly like the real ones.
I'm jumping 0.100" to the lands (112gr Match Burners, also running "slow" at ~2900fps).
The barrel now has 1500rds on it.
The barrel when new after 150 rounds on it: lands @ 2.2550". After 1500 rounds on it: lands @ 2.2545" (actually could be zero, really tough to call if I wasn't closing the calipers too hard once within a thou).
Edit: Remember, loaded in closer to the lands (like the ubiquitous .020" off) usually means cooking off ~0.006" per 100 rounds!!! (https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/24/how-fast-does-a-barrel-wear/)
Crazy.
View attachment 8018736
LOL! You're right, good catch, me being a dumbass didn't realize I'd said it measured half a thou backward (if it was what I thought it was, it'd be 2.1555" or 2.156, etc)... but honestly, that's well within the tolerance of my calipers and my measuring ability (still within a thou), and it tells me the same thing: the throat hasn't eroded at all really (which still jives).Are you hypothesizing that when you use 100 thou bullet jump or more at your throat doesn't erode as fast? Arent we reasonably sure that throat erosion comes from hot gases of burning powder? Not the bullet itself. That's why the throat erodes and not the rest of the barrel.
I'ma say if you're throat moved backwards over 1500rds you're measuring is wrong.
Can you take a picture of the throat?
That is impressive, almost unbelievable if I'm being perfectly honest. You check the throat and free bore with a bore scope to make sure it's perfectly clean and no carbon build-up? If the answer is yes, then that is damn impressive! What powder are you running?
What brand barrel are you shooting? I see PVA says his team shooters are seeing 2500 rounds before having to pull barrels using Osprey blanks.
I've burned out 3 6 creedmoor barrels(2 were factory buttoned rifle barrels) with the longest lasting 1200 rounds. I now have a PVA barrel sitting on the shelf waiting to be put to work.
Not right now, I actually don't own a borescope... on purpose, because I've never needed one.
I may buy an el cheapo one of Amazon for shits and giggles because now I'm curious about what it looks like too? And I still have my old barrel that made it 2300rds I loaded the same way to look at too... my hypothesis is I'm going to see a bunch of fire-cracking but IDK?
That's something to check out too for sure... This whole time, with both barrels, I've been running 300 pieces of Lapua 22-250Rem brass that I necked up with a mandrel and then fire-formed into 6CM on the first firing. The powder is and has always been 41 grains of Sta-Ball with both barrels.
The necks on the ex-22-250 brass started short, they started ~1.890", and now I'm on like ~12X fired and I still haven't had to trim them! They're all ~1.894-1.900ish" now. SAAMI minimum is 1.910".
Now, before anyone starts screaming CARBON RING!, CARBON RING! at me: I know, and it's not that. If there is carbon build-up, it's not enough to hurt anything when cleaning every 200-400ish rounds the way I do. I'm paranoid/diligent about it and spend more time on the chamber than anyone I know or at least compared to what I've ever heard of in bolt-gun circles to make sure that snake doesn't bite me.
I use one of these 10" chamber rods and a decent-quality AR chamber brush, everyone should have one:
Amazon product ASIN B00LCT9WCK
I am curious as to what I'm going to see?
You know how to tell if you got a carbon ring or not?
By looking at the throat or front of chamber with a borescope. Don't listen to the borescope naysayers. But you're not going to be able to corroborate your erosion numbers by subjectively looking at fire cracking.
The logic of zero erosion over 1500rds is what gets me. So how does the barrel go out? No erosion for 1697rds and then .200" in the next 340rds? By the logic of no erosion over 1500 rounds, your barrel should last you three to five thousand rounds
It loses accuracy and predictable velocity. How do we think that happens? The condition of the bore changes negatively. The way that happens is from erosion and firecracking.
It's two different forms of the same thing. One is on the bore and lands, the other is on the beginning of the lands. That's why you can't have one without the other.
I just cannot believe you can shoot 1500rds and have no throat erosion. Period. The number of people that can't measure their throat accurately abounds. The number of people that can, clearly show throat erosion. I also jump 90 to 120 thou on a couple of rifles. Guess what, those throats still erode
And I don't need to refer to an article. I own a borescope and have measured throats. I know what it looks like.
Or maybe I'm wrong and you figured out how to make a 6 Creed go for 3000rds
I’m shooting a GT with DTACs currently, but still have Creed barrels. I don’t know without going back and checking the Creed barrels, but I don’t recall being able to get anywhere near .100” jump with a DTAC without being well into the case.
My newest lot of DTACs have a BTO of .781” and 1.344” long (20 bullets measured). The lot I’m shooting in the GT is about .045” shorter at ogive.
Until recently, it was a fact in bolt-gun circles that you had to break in a barrel properly or else, which is total bullshit. So who knows..?
What do you mean by "recently"? Break-in has been getting called out on forums as long as I can remember (20+ years).
I think your guess (carbon build-up) is probably a good one as to why I can't measure any throat erosion, especially because you've hit the nail on the head, I've never used abrasives to clean it, Boretech Eliminator, patches, and nylon brush only, every 200rds or so.
Thing is, I've never had any issues or anything wonky with the way it shoots, the barrel has been great... so if it does end up being carbon build-up, then I'll be at an impasse as to whether or not I want/need to clean it out...
But, at least that'll explain what's going on with the lands.
Patch it with alcohol and take pictures with your bore scope when you get it. I was measuring erosion in 300 rounds with a mild load .050" off of the lands.
I would try a different measurement technique.
Are you able to remove your barrel easily? Like a switch barrel?
The guns I can't unscrew the barrel from while the rifle is assembled is a minority. Plus ARs. The guns I shoot a lot, I pull the barrel to clean and if I want to measure lands. So I do that with just the barrel and a dummy round. I get an empty, sized case, insert it into the chamber and ensure it fits without resistance. As in the shoulders are tapping audibly against the front of the corresponding chamber shoulder walls.
View attachment 8020915
You should be able to feel the case slide freely and the hard stop of the shoulders in the chamber at headspace. You can also observe the case is fully seated in the chamber by the body being fully inserted.
View attachment 8020916
Then, I'll seat a bullet in THAT case. Intentionally long so the case can't seat. You'll feel the lands bite the ogive. It will be a sticky or mushy feel. If you push the case in hard, the bullet will stick in the lands and you'll have a hard time pulling the dummy round out.
View attachment 8020920View attachment 8020922
I see the bullet 5 or 10 thou deeper each time and keep reinserting it into the chamber. Feeling for the shoulders to tap the front of the chamber. You will be able to tell when you are close because the majority of the case body will be inside the chamber. At that point, I seat in smaller increments so I don't overshoot. I also start measuring CBTO or OAL each time I see the bullet and stick it in the chamber. When seating the loaded dummy round is no longer sticky or mushy and you feel the front of the chamber walls, that's when your bullet no longer touches the lands. You should have a measurement from the last time that you felt the bullet touch the lands of you start measuring with each seat.
Soak and clean your chamber and front 25% of the rifling a little more than you normally do. Consider using a brush. You have to ensure that there's no built up residual hardened carbon that is corrupting your measurements.
Obviously all you will be able to do right now is establish a baseline since you're using a new measurement technique. Try to clean and measure every 100 rounds for the next five or six.
I got into a mode where I really wanted to figure this stuff out. I cleaned and tracked and measured a couple different barrels. A bunch of buddies and I all used the same gunsmith. They would bring their guns into him and he would clean, measure and track their barrels and record their round counts. He and I added up our data. We never found a single barrel that didn't show show erosion every 100 rounds. He himself was shooting a 32-in barrel 6xc at 2900 per second with a 108 Berger boat tail. Basically sandbagging it. And his barrel still showed erosion. Out of about a dozen barrels they all correlated to .002" to .006" per hundred rounds. I will admit there were some wonky measurements where it looked like there was no growth for 200rds but over 800 or a thousand rounds we were able to average a "per hundred round" rate.
You're obviously emotional
Okay, I'm out. Do your thing dude. You figured it out. Jump a bullet over 100 thou and a 6 Creed will last 3000rds. You blew it wide open and figured it out for everyone.
Okay, I'm out. Do your thing dude. You figured it out. Jump a bullet over 100 thou and a 6 Creed will last 3000rds. You blew it wide open and figured it out for everyone.
I'd rather see you measure it with a Stoney Point tool in the current state and then after you clean all the carbon out. The Stoney Point tools give consistent enough results to be reliable.
I don't have that tool, but it looks like the Hornady thingy which is iffy at best, so nope, not wasting any more money on this nonsense. Besides, I'm not cleaning any carbon out, the barrel shoots fine and I am done with this BS at this point.
It's your choice but your pictures tell the whole story.
@CK1.0
Here is how I deal with carbon rings and cleaning in general. Get a chamber plug from possum hollow, pull your bolt out, insert chamber plug, stand gun on butt stock, fill barrel and chamber with your favorite cleaner ( I use Patch Out or Boretech Eliminator) making sure it’s also on any carbon on the crown, let soak for a few hours, pour it out, run a stiff brush through to knock out loose stuff, fill it again, let soak overnight while I sleep and/or go to work, come home, dump out the fluid, run a brush and then some patches down it and it is likely clean. I may have to use an oversized brush on a short rod to clean out any carbon at the end of the chamber.
This is a very lazy and easy way to do it. You don’t have to remove the barrel or action from the chassis. I always pull the muzzle brake off so I can clean the crown.
Chamber Plugs
Check out https://www.possumhollowproducts.com! Chamber plugs are excellent for fouled rifle barrels.possumhollowproducts.com
Just call him up. It’s rare he doesn’t answer. I called one Sunday morning and he was driving to a match. He pulled over, took my order and on his way he went. Chamber plug was sent out the next day.Yeah I've been using a foamie to do that from the muzzle end but I'd much rather have a plug I could use. I wish Possum Hollow had a better web site though. It doesn't work on mobile really at all.
Hmmmm. I will call him right now and see. I looked for em at a few other places but they didn't have the ones I wanted. Will do, thank youJust call him up. It’s rare he doesn’t answer. I called one Sunday morning and he was driving to a match. He pulled over, took my order and on his way he went. Chamber plug was sent out the next day.
Is it that number on their page? I didn't get anyone to answer that oneJust call him up. It’s rare he doesn’t answer. I called one Sunday morning and he was driving to a match. He pulled over, took my order and on his way he went. Chamber plug was sent out the next day.
Yeah he actually called me back, told me a little about the new style plug, took my order and I'm good to go! Nice dudeI honestly don’t remember what the number was, it’s been a couple years ago now. I’m sure I got it off the website though. I’m pretty sure the P15 for 280 is the same as the Creedmoor. Both use the 473 bolt face.
Glad you got ahold of him. Do me a favor and post pics of the new style plug please.Yeah he actually called me back, told me a little about the new style plug, took my order and I'm good to go! Nice dude