**6 Creedmoor**

[High Desert duck]

Anybody try the 109eldm in the 6creed yet?

Any insight?

I used my 110 atip load with it. Same COTB, almost the same speed (50 fps slower). Shoots just as good as the 110 just with a lower bc Didn’t even change my zero.
I‘m not near my data right now. But if I remember correctly it’s 40 grains 4451 at 3000 fps. ~2.775 COAL.

 

[CK1.0]

This is an update to post #1,017... in case anyone is wondering, this is a good chunk of the "why/how" a barrel and load using a healthy bullet jump stays so consistent (boring) over its life...

I was having more issues than usual holding a tight group lately, so I started checking my rig looking for a reason as to why (I mean besides me sucking at shooting lol). This meant going over the whole rifle to verify that everything was torqued to spec (action screws, scope mount, etc) and then looking at the possibility that my throat had eroded to the point where my load needed to be tweaked or even maybe me having to work up a new load.

Well, turns out it wasn't the barrel/load (my trigger pull-weight had increased on its own, doubled in weight somehow).

That said, decided to check on my throat erosion: I use/recommend the Deep Creek Method to find one's lands using a dummy round made up of the same ingredients, same brass, same bullet, prepared exactly like the real ones.

I'm jumping 0.100" to the lands (112gr Match Burners, also running "slow" at ~2900fps).

The barrel now has 1500rds on it.

The barrel when new after 150 rounds on it: lands @ 2.2550". After 1500 rounds on it: lands @ 2.2545" (actually could be zero, really tough to call if I wasn't closing the calipers too hard once within a thou).

Edit: Remember, loaded in closer to the lands (like the ubiquitous .020" off) usually means cooking off ~0.006" per 100 rounds!!! (https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/24/how-fast-does-a-barrel-wear/)

Crazy.

 

[Big Timber]

What brand barrel are you shooting? I see PVA says his team shooters are seeing 2500 rounds before having to pull barrels using Osprey blanks.

I've burned out 3 6 creedmoor barrels(2 were factory buttoned rifle barrels) with the longest lasting 1200 rounds. I now have a PVA barrel sitting on the shelf waiting to be put to work.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

This is an update to post #1,017... in case anyone is wondering, this is a good chunk of the "why/how" a barrel and load using a healthy bullet jump stays so consistent (boring) over its life...

I was having more issues than usual holding a tight group lately, so I started checking my rig looking for a reason as to why (I mean besides me sucking at shooting lol). This meant going over the whole rifle to verify that everything was torqued to spec (action screws, scope mount, etc) and then looking at the possibility that my throat had eroded to the point where my load needed to be tweaked or even maybe me having to work up a new load.

Well, turns out it wasn't the barrel/load (my trigger pull-weight had increased on its own, doubled in weight somehow).

That said, decided to check on my throat erosion: I use/recommend the Deep Creek Method to find one's lands using a dummy round made up of the same ingredients, same brass, same bullet, prepared exactly like the real ones.

I'm jumping 0.100" to the lands (112gr Match Burners, also running "slow" at ~2900fps).

The barrel now has 1500rds on it.

The barrel when new after 150 rounds on it: lands @ 2.2550". After 1500 rounds on it: lands @ 2.2545" (actually could be zero, really tough to call if I wasn't closing the calipers too hard once within a thou).

Edit: Remember, loaded in closer to the lands (like the ubiquitous .020" off) usually means cooking off ~0.006" per 100 rounds!!! (https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/24/how-fast-does-a-barrel-wear/)

Crazy.

View attachment 8018736

Can you take a picture of the throat?

 

[MilSpecOkie]

That is impressive, almost unbelievable if I'm being perfectly honest. You check the throat and free bore with a bore scope to make sure it's perfectly clean and no carbon build up? If the answer is yes, then that is damn impressive! What powder are you running?

 

[granite wagon]

Osprey 20" w/ PVA ( short throat ) option. Barrel has 174rds on it as of this post.
Peterson SP brass
Viht N-160

CCI #41 & Berger 108BT ( touch @ 2.215 ogive )
Very consistent loaded at 2.190 ogive & 42.4 of N-160
2890ish fps. * This load sped up about 30-35 fps as the barrel approached 100 rds. dropped .4grn to get back in node.

CCI 450 & DTAC 115 ( touch @ 2.215 ogive )
Very consitent loaded at 2.190 ogive & 40.3 of N-160
2790ish fps. There is another node up about 41.4ish grains but it is stout & dont think brass would hold up long.

 

[HOOFER]

This is what I did when I got involved in 6 creed. And that load shot lights out in 3 different 6 creeds. A GAP 10/ Bartlein A origin /proof steel. And GAP tempest Bartlein



I just saw this thread came back from the dead 9 years ago lol.

 

[CK1.0]

Are you hypothesizing that when you use 100 thou bullet jump or more at your throat doesn't erode as fast? Arent we reasonably sure that throat erosion comes from hot gases of burning powder? Not the bullet itself. That's why the throat erodes and not the rest of the barrel.

I'ma say if you're throat moved backwards over 1500rds you're measuring is wrong.

LOL! You're right, good catch, me being a dumbass didn't realize I'd said it measured half a thou backward (if it was what I thought it was, it'd be 2.1555" or 2.156, etc)... but honestly, that's well within the tolerance of my calipers and my measuring ability (still within a thou), and it tells me the same thing: the throat hasn't eroded at all really (which still jives).

My last barrel loaded the same way did the same type of magic. If you go all the way back to post #954, you (@reubenski) gave me the idea to stick with the exact same piece of brass and bullet lol... so if anything, I've gotten better at measuring it.

 

[CK1.0]

Can you take a picture of the throat?

Not right now, I actually don't own a borescope... on purpose, because I've never needed one.

I may buy an el cheapo one of Amazon for shits and giggles because now I'm curious about what it looks like too? And I still have my old barrel that made it 2300rds I loaded the same way to look at too... my hypothesis is I'm going to see a bunch of fire-cracking but IDK?

(EDIT: I ordered one, it'll be here in a few days...)

That is impressive, almost unbelievable if I'm being perfectly honest. You check the throat and free bore with a bore scope to make sure it's perfectly clean and no carbon build-up? If the answer is yes, then that is damn impressive! What powder are you running?

That's something to check out too for sure... This whole time, with both barrels, I've been running 300 pieces of Lapua 22-250Rem brass that I necked up with a mandrel and then fire-formed into 6CM on the first firing. The powder is and has always been 41 grains of Sta-Ball with both barrels.

The necks on the ex-22-250 brass started short, they started ~1.890", and now I'm on like ~12X fired and I still haven't had to trim them! They're all ~1.894-1.900ish" now. SAAMI minimum is 1.910".

Now, before anyone starts screaming CARBON RING!, CARBON RING! at me: I know, I know... and I don't think it's that. If there is carbon build-up, it's not enough to hurt anything when cleaning every 200-400ish rounds the way I do. I'm paranoid/diligent about it and spend more time on the chamber than anyone I know or at least compared to what I've ever heard of in bolt-gun circles to make sure that snake doesn't bite me.

I use one of these 10" chamber rods and a decent-quality AR chamber brush, everyone should have one:

Amazon product ASIN B00LCT9WCK
I am curious as to what I'm going to see?

 

[CK1.0]

What brand barrel are you shooting? I see PVA says his team shooters are seeing 2500 rounds before having to pull barrels using Osprey blanks.

I've burned out 3 6 creedmoor barrels(2 were factory buttoned rifle barrels) with the longest lasting 1200 rounds. I now have a PVA barrel sitting on the shelf waiting to be put to work.

These are Proof SS 26" prefits (SKU 121535). I believe Proof prefits are cut rifling but I'm not a huge believer yet if it matters one way or the other vs button rifling.

Before the 2 Proof's, I also had an X-caliber SS 26" MTU (button) from Crown Ridge Barrel Works that was still shooting lights out when I pulled it at ~2300rds (I installed a fresh one of the same thing when selling the rig to my buddy). But with that one I ran 108gr ELD-M's at 0.040ish off for ~1000rds, before switching to DTAC's at .100" off... never measured the throat on that one for erosion before I gave it to another buddy who was going to have it set back...

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Not right now, I actually don't own a borescope... on purpose, because I've never needed one.

I may buy an el cheapo one of Amazon for shits and giggles because now I'm curious about what it looks like too? And I still have my old barrel that made it 2300rds I loaded the same way to look at too... my hypothesis is I'm going to see a bunch of fire-cracking but IDK?



That's something to check out too for sure... This whole time, with both barrels, I've been running 300 pieces of Lapua 22-250Rem brass that I necked up with a mandrel and then fire-formed into 6CM on the first firing. The powder is and has always been 41 grains of Sta-Ball with both barrels.

The necks on the ex-22-250 brass started short, they started ~1.890", and now I'm on like ~12X fired and I still haven't had to trim them! They're all ~1.894-1.900ish" now. SAAMI minimum is 1.910".

Now, before anyone starts screaming CARBON RING!, CARBON RING! at me: I know, and it's not that. If there is carbon build-up, it's not enough to hurt anything when cleaning every 200-400ish rounds the way I do. I'm paranoid/diligent about it and spend more time on the chamber than anyone I know or at least compared to what I've ever heard of in bolt-gun circles to make sure that snake doesn't bite me.

I use one of these 10" chamber rods and a decent-quality AR chamber brush, everyone should have one:

Amazon product ASIN B00LCT9WCK
I am curious as to what I'm going to see?

My experience with the same barrel and same cartridge is different than yours. Borescopes are useful for these types of things.

 

[Big Timber]

My thought process is, I bought a hotrod, I'm not going to idle it around the track and brag about how long my tires last. Now, if I can buy tires that have harder compounds and last longer while still performing, I will buy those when I burn these tires off.

 

[CK1.0]

You know how to tell if you got a carbon ring or not?

Maintaining my usual cleaning regime, I haven't had anything out of the ordinary happen with my barrel/ammo downrange to make me concerned there was a problem (like a carbon ring)... so I haven't had to worry about it.

A borescope is inbound... but only because I want to see what it looks like too, there's no issue/problem with the barrel at all.

I had a problem with my trigger getting heavier on me (without me knowing it), nothing to do with the barrel. I just figured I'd measure/check the throat erosion since I already had the gun up on a tripod.

I was looking for a reason as to why my gun was hammering when it was steel downrange at 600-1250 yards, but for some unknown reason, was not shooting good groups at 100-300yrds. It turns out I had just gotten used to the heavier pull, and with that, into the habit of just holding more windage to compensate for the heavier trigger on longer stuff, and I'm not good enough at shooting groups to do it well without the help of a heavy ass rifle and light ass Gucci trigger lol.

I'm pretty surprised by the lack of erosion too and would like to see if it's bullshit/something I've missed. I will post some pics once the borescope shows up.

 

[CK1.0]

By looking at the throat or front of chamber with a borescope. Don't listen to the borescope naysayers. But you're not going to be able to corroborate your erosion numbers by subjectively looking at fire cracking.

The logic of zero erosion over 1500rds is what gets me. So how does the barrel go out? No erosion for 1697rds and then .200" in the next 340rds? By the logic of no erosion over 1500 rounds, your barrel should last you three to five thousand rounds

Yeah, I've avoided having a borescope because for a lot of guys they seem to create more questions than answers... but I already have every other reloading tool/gizmo so... one's on the way. I'm just going to try and leave it in its box unless it's really/actually needed to help explain something or rule something out, I don't care what the inside of a barrel looks like unless there's a problem with how it shoots.

I don't know quite what to make of this yet, but I also haven't developed any "logic of zero erosion" either. I don't know why a barrel dies when it dies, but my last barrel before this one was showing a stupid small amount of erosion too, I posted about it earlier (post #925). I thought I had ~0.006" of erosion after 1000 rounds, but after a little input from the Hide my measuring shortcomings were elucidated, @MilSpecOkie suggested using the exact same components to be more precise, you suggested I clean it each time before measuring (duh), etc. But, I wasn't off by much, the barrel's throat had probably eroded less than 0.006"... I just wasn't good at measuring it yet.

I tracked less than 0.001" of erosion between 1500 rounds and 1800 rounds on that first Proof barrel (post #954).

Again I don't know why that last barrel died when it did (~2300rds), but it fell off a cliff when it did, l lost over 100fps and it started throwing unexplained flyers (but stayed annoyingly accurate enough for me to not want to totally give up on it for the last ~50-100rds or so). IDK? The borescope will allow me to do a little forensic investigation I guess?

 

[CK1.0]

It loses accuracy and predictable velocity. How do we think that happens? The condition of the bore changes negatively. The way that happens is from erosion and firecracking.

"Cause of death = Fire-cracking" is my working hypothesis. Erosion, IDK, maybe not so much?

 

[CK1.0]

It's two different forms of the same thing. One is on the bore and lands, the other is on the beginning of the lands. That's why you can't have one without the other.

I don't see them as two forms of the same thing, I see it more like: erosion changes the relationship of when the rifling engages the projectile and also how much initial "bite" it has, while fire-cracking is more like how we describe the surface of the barrel becoming degraded to the point of inducing resistance/friction on the projectile to where they can't get a good "launch" straight down the rifling. We can measure erosion, for fire-cracking we have to use a borescope.

That said, and besides, IDK of anyone who's ever shot as many rounds as I have at .100" off and who's also monitored/measured/documented the amount of erosion that occurred to compare notes with... maybe this is just how it goes?

I'll post pics of the throat/lands when I can (of both barrels too). But I'm not so sure you can't have one without the other.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

I’m shooting a GT with DTACs currently, but still have Creed barrels. I don’t know without going back and checking the Creed barrels, but I don’t recall being able to get anywhere near .100” jump with a DTAC without being well into the case.

My newest lot of DTACs have a BTO of .781” and 1.344” long (20 bullets measured). The lot I’m shooting in the GT is about .045” shorter at ogive.

 

[CK1.0]

I just cannot believe you can shoot 1500rds and have no throat erosion. Period. The number of people that can't measure their throat accurately abounds. The number of people that can, clearly show throat erosion. I also jump 90 to 120 thou on a couple of rifles. Guess what, those throats still erode

And I don't need to refer to an article. I own a borescope and have measured throats. I know what it looks like.

Or maybe I'm wrong and you figured out how to make a 6 Creed go for 3000rds

Yeah, IDK what's going on, but I'd appreciate you pumping the brakes on calling me an asshole who can't figure out how to find the lands. Period.

I posted the pics to make sure we're talking about the same things and so others can follow along (because many don't know what they look like).

IDK what's going on yet exactly, but I've never said I've definitively figured out shit, and my last barrel died at ~2300rds (not 3000). I'm more interested in the (alleged) lack of throat erosion because that might explain why these barrels stayed so utterly boring over their lifetimes: consistent waterline downrange, dope hardly changed (besides weather), solid predictable speed, etc, and then one day, poof, dead.

Until recently, it was a fact in bolt-gun circles that you had to break in a barrel properly or else, which is total bullshit. So who knows..?

I'll post pics of the 2 barrel's throats once the borescope arrives.

 

[CK1.0]

I’m shooting a GT with DTACs currently, but still have Creed barrels. I don’t know without going back and checking the Creed barrels, but I don’t recall being able to get anywhere near .100” jump with a DTAC without being well into the case.

My newest lot of DTACs have a BTO of .781” and 1.344” long (20 bullets measured). The lot I’m shooting in the GT is about .045” shorter at ogive.

Yeah, bullet dependent for sure, bearing surface is bearing surface... and not sure any of us want to test how far one can go below the shoulder before all goes to hell lol.

FWIW these 112MB's base to ogive are ~.688" (Hornady comparator), secant/VLD.

With a 112gr Match Burner 2.155" CBTO I'm right at, or just below, the start of the shoulder (tried to take a decent pic, hard to get the angle):

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Until recently, it was a fact in bolt-gun circles that you had to break in a barrel properly or else, which is total bullshit. So who knows..?

What do you mean by "recently"? Break-in has been getting called out on forums as long as I can remember (20+ years).

 

[CK1.0]

What do you mean by "recently"? Break-in has been getting called out on forums as long as I can remember (20+ years).

You're correct, but you still hear the myth, just less so these days (IMHO due to Erik Cortina's YT channel mostly, fudds seem to like him lol).

 

[MilSpecOkie]

If you have never used an abrasive in 1500 rounds I'd venture to say you have carbon build up. I'm curios what your cleaning regiment is? I don't have anything against StaBall, It's like RL16 to me (Alliant powders in general), you just have to make sure you clean more often. Don't let it go 300-400 rounds unless you have no choice and know it will take some cleaning.

I just cleaned a friends 25 Creedmoor that he swore was clean because his patches came out perfectly clean. He also uses Staball. It had carbon for days which I was able to see with a bore scope and he had no idea. The good thing is he didn't have much more fire cracking than the last time I seen this barrel. It was all protected by rock hard carbon for about a foot. LOL

 

[CK1.0]

I think your guess (carbon build-up) is probably a good one as to why I can't measure any throat erosion, especially because you've hit the nail on the head, I've never used abrasives to clean it, Boretech Eliminator, patches, and nylon brush only, every 200rds or so.

Thing is, I've never had any issues or anything wonky with the way it shoots, the barrel has been great... so if it does end up being carbon build-up, then I'll be at an impasse as to whether or not I want/need to clean it out...

But, at least that'll explain what's going on with the lands.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I think your guess (carbon build-up) is probably a good one as to why I can't measure any throat erosion, especially because you've hit the nail on the head, I've never used abrasives to clean it, Boretech Eliminator, patches, and nylon brush only, every 200rds or so.

Thing is, I've never had any issues or anything wonky with the way it shoots, the barrel has been great... so if it does end up being carbon build-up, then I'll be at an impasse as to whether or not I want/need to clean it out...

But, at least that'll explain what's going on with the lands.

Patch it with alcohol and take pictures with your bore scope when you get it. I was measuring erosion in 300 rounds with a mild load .050" off of the lands.

 

[CK1.0]

Patch it with alcohol and take pictures with your bore scope when you get it. I was measuring erosion in 300 rounds with a mild load .050" off of the lands.

Here's what I got at my first attempt at using a borescope for 5 minutes...

The barrel looks fine to me, nothing jumped out at me, looks brand new 12" in front of the chamber. As expected due to using brass with short necks, there does seem to be a ring at the start of the freebore, but after trying to wiggle the camera around to look at it, the ring doesn't seem to be more than a "burn ring" with a thin layer of stubborn carbon, it doesn't look like it's impeading the projectile from seating into the chamber as it should or anything (and my bolt close is almost always buttery smooth using a 0.0015" bump).

I don't see anything wonky going on with the lands.

IDK?

Again, remember, I've had zero problems with the barrel, it still holds a .5" group or less at 100 (even with the trigger set twice as heavy as I like) and bangs 6" plates at 1000 yards.





Edit: Even weirder... I found this: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/is-it-a-carbon-ring.181410/

I don't belong to that forum, but that's another guy who was seeing nearly the same thing as me: lands aren't eroding much if any (if he was measuring correctly), shooting StaBall, pics look similar...

And there's this, where guys start going over the best way to clean it out before establishing whether or not it's even a problem lol (why I never bought a borescope hahaha): https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/stubborn-carbon-ring-removal.7088935/

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Looks like a carbon ring and fire cracking. Certainly not a worn out barrel but enough to have erosion.

 

[CK1.0]

IDK, the best I can do to try and solve this mystery is: take a measurement now, while the barrel is clean and I (we) know what it looks like, shoot another 100-300rds, clean it, and measure and borescope it again.

Thoughts?

 

[CK1.0]

I would try a different measurement technique.

Are you able to remove your barrel easily? Like a switch barrel?

Actually, I talked to TriggerTech earlier and I've got to pull my BA to blow the trigger out anyways, so since I'll have to re-zero it... I can pull the barrel.

What do you suggest?

 

[CK1.0]

The guns I can't unscrew the barrel from while the rifle is assembled is a minority. Plus ARs. The guns I shoot a lot, I pull the barrel to clean and if I want to measure lands. So I do that with just the barrel and a dummy round. I get an empty, sized case, insert it into the chamber and ensure it fits without resistance. As in the shoulders are tapping audibly against the front of the corresponding chamber shoulder walls.
View attachment 8020915
You should be able to feel the case slide freely and the hard stop of the shoulders in the chamber at headspace. You can also observe the case is fully seated in the chamber by the body being fully inserted.
View attachment 8020916

Then, I'll seat a bullet in THAT case. Intentionally long so the case can't seat. You'll feel the lands bite the ogive. It will be a sticky or mushy feel. If you push the case in hard, the bullet will stick in the lands and you'll have a hard time pulling the dummy round out.
View attachment 8020920View attachment 8020922
I see the bullet 5 or 10 thou deeper each time and keep reinserting it into the chamber. Feeling for the shoulders to tap the front of the chamber. You will be able to tell when you are close because the majority of the case body will be inside the chamber. At that point, I seat in smaller increments so I don't overshoot. I also start measuring CBTO or OAL each time I see the bullet and stick it in the chamber. When seating the loaded dummy round is no longer sticky or mushy and you feel the front of the chamber walls, that's when your bullet no longer touches the lands. You should have a measurement from the last time that you felt the bullet touch the lands of you start measuring with each seat.

Soak and clean your chamber and front 25% of the rifling a little more than you normally do. Consider using a brush. You have to ensure that there's no built up residual hardened carbon that is corrupting your measurements.

Obviously all you will be able to do right now is establish a baseline since you're using a new measurement technique. Try to clean and measure every 100 rounds for the next five or six.

I got into a mode where I really wanted to figure this stuff out. I cleaned and tracked and measured a couple different barrels. A bunch of buddies and I all used the same gunsmith. They would bring their guns into him and he would clean, measure and track their barrels and record their round counts. He and I added up our data. We never found a single barrel that didn't show show erosion every 100 rounds. He himself was shooting a 32-in barrel 6xc at 2900 per second with a 108 Berger boat tail. Basically sandbagging it. And his barrel still showed erosion. Out of about a dozen barrels they all correlated to .002" to .006" per hundred rounds. I will admit there were some wonky measurements where it looked like there was no growth for 200rds but over 800 or a thousand rounds we were able to average a "per hundred round" rate.

@reubenski, not trying to be snarky, but have you ever watched the video showing the Deep Creek Method? Because it works exactly the same way, one can literally feel the difference between the half a thou when the bullet is in the lands and when it isn't anymore.

That said, I'm going to pull the barrel tomorrow and measure the distance to the lands using this same method @reubenski uses.

Then, I'll pull the bullet, resize the case, and put the dummy round back together (using the same case and bullet) so I can measure again using the Deep Creek Method that I've been using for a while (after I have the gun back together).

The reason I want to do it both ways is: I honestly don't see any difference at all between the method @reubenski uses and the Deep Creek method (besides removing the barrel or not)... but instead of going back and forth arguing about it, I'll just do it both ways and we'll see what happens.

Then I'll shoot what I already have loaded up (just under 200rds IIRC), clean it again, and measure it again using the Deep Creek Method. If once again the measurement comes back showing zero or near-zero erosion... I guess I'll pull the barrel again and see what I get using the method @reubenski described.

 

[CK1.0]

You're obviously emotional

Fuck off lol. After you posted that nonsense, I'm not sure you know as much about what you're talking about as you think.

Look, I can either placate your unreasonable assertion that one cannot find the distance to the lands unless they do it your way (which honestly just seems like justification for having a gunsmith charge you to cut those dumb wrench flats into your barrels you're always mentioning that you're so proud of), or you can shut the fuck up because you're not adding anything to the discussion other than saying "That's BS" over and over without giving a reason as to why other than because you've never encountered it before (and you know it all).

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I'd rather see you measure it with a Stoney Point tool in the current state and then after you clean all the carbon out. The Stoney Point tools give consistent enough results to be reliable.

 

[CK1.0]

Okay, I'm out. Do your thing dude. You figured it out. Jump a bullet over 100 thou and a 6 Creed will last 3000rds. You blew it wide open and figured it out for everyone.

Good get out, you're useless. There are whole bunch of other threads you can act like you're some Jedi master know-it-all iin nstead of adding anything new.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Okay, I'm out. Do your thing dude. You figured it out. Jump a bullet over 100 thou and a 6 Creed will last 3000rds. You blew it wide open and figured it out for everyone.

Come on, ease back a little. There's more than one way to do this. He's on the right track. He'll figure it out.

 

[CK1.0]

I'd rather see you measure it with a Stoney Point tool in the current state and then after you clean all the carbon out. The Stoney Point tools give consistent enough results to be reliable.

I don't have that tool, but it looks like the Hornady thingy which is iffy at best, so nope, not wasting any more money on this nonsense. Besides, I'm not cleaning any carbon out, the barrel shoots fine and I am done with this BS at this point.

(Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a dick, just tired of this know-it-all-pissing-contest shit.)

If anyone thinks I'm full of shit, cool, all they have to do to prove me wrong is: buy a barrel and enough of all of the exact same components to shoot the thing out without changing anything or adjusting the load at all, feeding it the exact same load for its whole life, and then do it again. Because when this second barrel dies, that'll be what I've done (and it's documented in this thread). Then we can argue about it.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I don't have that tool, but it looks like the Hornady thingy which is iffy at best, so nope, not wasting any more money on this nonsense. Besides, I'm not cleaning any carbon out, the barrel shoots fine and I am done with this BS at this point.

It's your choice but your pictures tell the whole story.

 

[CK1.0]

It's your choice but your pictures tell the whole story.

I don't think so, if you're talking about that ring, the only thing that proves to me is that I was just fine not owning a borescope lol.

I'll measure it in a couple/few hundred rounds and see what I get, as it stands now, it measures 2.255" to the lands (give or take a half a thou), we'll see what I get later...

 

[MilSpecOkie]

@CK1.0

Here is how I deal with carbon rings and cleaning in general. Get a chamber plug from possum hollow, pull your bolt out, insert chamber plug, stand gun on butt stock, fill barrel and chamber with your favorite cleaner ( I use Patch Out or Boretech Eliminator) making sure it’s also on any carbon on the crown, let soak for a few hours, pour it out, run a stiff brush through to knock out loose stuff, fill it again, let soak overnight while I sleep and/or go to work, come home, dump out the fluid, run a brush and then some patches down it and it is likely clean. I may have to use an oversized brush on a short rod to clean out any carbon at the end of the chamber.

This is a very lazy and easy way to do it. You don’t have to remove the barrel or action from the chassis. I always pull the muzzle brake off so I can clean the crown.

Chamber Plugs

Check out https://www.possumhollowproducts.com! Chamber plugs are excellent for fouled rifle barrels.

possumhollowproducts.com

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

@CK1.0

Here is how I deal with carbon rings and cleaning in general. Get a chamber plug from possum hollow, pull your bolt out, insert chamber plug, stand gun on butt stock, fill barrel and chamber with your favorite cleaner ( I use Patch Out or Boretech Eliminator) making sure it’s also on any carbon on the crown, let soak for a few hours, pour it out, run a stiff brush through to knock out loose stuff, fill it again, let soak overnight while I sleep and/or go to work, come home, dump out the fluid, run a brush and then some patches down it and it is likely clean. I may have to use an oversized brush on a short rod to clean out any carbon at the end of the chamber.

This is a very lazy and easy way to do it. You don’t have to remove the barrel or action from the chassis. I always pull the muzzle brake off so I can clean the crown.

Chamber Plugs

Check out https://www.possumhollowproducts.com! Chamber plugs are excellent for fouled rifle barrels.

possumhollowproducts.com

Yeah I've been using a foamie to do that from the muzzle end but I'd much rather have a plug I could use. I wish Possum Hollow had a better web site though. It doesn't work on mobile really at all.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Yeah I've been using a foamie to do that from the muzzle end but I'd much rather have a plug I could use. I wish Possum Hollow had a better web site though. It doesn't work on mobile really at all.

Just call him up. It’s rare he doesn’t answer. I called one Sunday morning and he was driving to a match. He pulled over, took my order and on his way he went. Chamber plug was sent out the next day.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Just call him up. It’s rare he doesn’t answer. I called one Sunday morning and he was driving to a match. He pulled over, took my order and on his way he went. Chamber plug was sent out the next day.

Hmmmm. I will call him right now and see. I looked for em at a few other places but they didn't have the ones I wanted. Will do, thank you

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Just call him up. It’s rare he doesn’t answer. I called one Sunday morning and he was driving to a match. He pulled over, took my order and on his way he went. Chamber plug was sent out the next day.

Is it that number on their page? I didn't get anyone to answer that one

 

[MilSpecOkie]

I honestly don’t remember what the number was, it’s been a couple years ago now. I’m sure I got it off the website though. I’m pretty sure the P15 for 280 is the same as the Creedmoor. Both use the 473 bolt face.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Here is the chamber plug. It’s just an appropriately sized Delrin rod with an o-ring grove cut in it. It goes into the chamber maybe 1/3-1/2 the way? I stand it up in the corner and fill the barrel up with a squeeze bottle or syringe depending on what I’m using. Easy peasy.

 

[CK1.0]

@MilSpecOkie thanks for the suggestion about the Possum Hollow plug (I didn't know they made something like that, cool).

That said, that's as clean as my barrel is going to get, those borescope pictures were actually taken after me cleaning it lol. I'm going to stick to the regime I've been using: Boretech Eliminator, cotton patches, nylon brush, that's all. I know that many guys around here wouldn't consider that even close to "clean"... but it works for me.

I had picked up the borescope only to see what was going on with my lands (and their lack of erosion) out of pure curiosity, that's it.

In fact, I shot a ~.3" group at 100 earlier (5 shots touching), and was banging MOA & 1/2MOA plates at 1000yrds no problem with a 15-20mph cross-wind, the barrel still hammers.

BTW/FWIW, It's so nice to have a good trigger again! I had to pull my barreled action, then pull the trigger, to blow it out with brake cleaner and compressed air (per Triggertech's instructions, which reminds me that I need to update that thread...). Somehow, my trigger had crept up in pull-weight and increased to well over a pound instead of being at 8-9oz where I like it. Now hopefully it's fixed and will stay where I set it. Strangely, I didn't even have to re-zero... It was within a click, one way or the other, and it was too windy to bother trying to get it any closer than it already was lol.

As an aside, I was talking to a buddy who has a bunch more experience than I do with a borescope... and he pointed out that those pics I took look to him like my lands are a bit beat up and that my lands are indeed eroding, just not enough yet to show up measuring with a bullet. He pointed out that the lands in my pics look tapered and skinnier at their start towards the chamber, he was just bore scoping a new barrel with 100rds on it the other day and pointed out that the lands on a new barrel are more uniform in thickness and nearly square towards the chamber (see pic, not my barrel but a pic of a new one I found):

 

[whatsupdoc]

I have burned through two 6mm creed barrels, after my initial load tests I never changed the bullet
seating depth, first one started throwing fliers at around 1620 second one was still shooting in the low .3's at 100 yards
with 1600-ish rounds down the tube and put 5 rounds into a 8" group at 1K yards with 105 match burners.

Both barrels had substantial firecracking in the throat and I clean after every range trip almost.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I honestly don’t remember what the number was, it’s been a couple years ago now. I’m sure I got it off the website though. I’m pretty sure the P15 for 280 is the same as the Creedmoor. Both use the 473 bolt face.

Yeah he actually called me back, told me a little about the new style plug, took my order and I'm good to go! Nice dude

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Yeah he actually called me back, told me a little about the new style plug, took my order and I'm good to go! Nice dude

Glad you got ahold of him. Do me a favor and post pics of the new style plug please.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

@CK1.0

If you strip your barrel of all the carbon you will see your barrel will look as your buddy described. Your carbon is filling in the edges of the grooves making them look skinny. Once you get down to metal you may find more fire cracking.

That said, I will say the the end of the chamber where the free bore starts looks damn good for having 3000 rounds on it. I just did a quick chamber clean tonight of my 6GT with less than half as many rounds on it and it looks 1000x worse than yours. Mine has been feed a diet of 105-115 grain bullets pushed by H4350.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Glad you got ahold of him. Do me a favor and post pics of the new style plug please.

Sure. Will do when they get here. I only needed 2 to cover my 6cm, 6.5cm, .308, and .223. I think they are pretty much like what's posted above from what he said. A rod with a reamer shape on the end with an o ring but I will post some pics as soon as they get in. Thanks again

 

[CK1.0]

@CK1.0

If you strip your barrel of all the carbon you will see your barrel will look as your buddy described. Your carbon is filling in the edges of the grooves making them look skinny. Once you get down to metal you may find more fire cracking.

That said, I will say the the end of the chamber where the free bore starts looks damn good for having 3000 rounds on it. I just did a quick chamber clean tonight of my 6GT with less than half as many rounds on it and it looks 1000x worse than yours. Mine has been feed a diet of 105-115 grain bullets pushed by H4350.

This barrel only has 1500rds on it.

That 3000 number came from another guy throwing it around while trying to say that I'm saying something that I'm not.

I still don't really know what's going on with the lack of erosion on my lands, but I also haven't been able to find anything out there about anyone doing the same "experiment" (running slow and jumping a bunch for the life of the barrel) as I've been doing for this barrel and my last one.

If I didn't already have a couple of 6GT barrels and 300rds of 6GT loaded and on deck, I'd consider running another one of these 6CM barrels just to see if the same phenomenon continues...