Thanks Ceekay. That tends to make sense to me. I'm shooting the Berger 144 Hybrids in my 6.5 and I'm jumping them 90 thousands and they shoot great. I was hoping the 109's liked to jump too.
**6 Creedmoor**
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
Thanks. Bare... for another 100rds at least lol...
I’m going to have to move onto a box of 500 coated, that I wet tumbled in order to take the coating off (that’s all they had left and DTAC’s have been out of stock since...). Hopefully things don’t get wonky with them
I don’t think you can wash the coating off. If you start shooting them with a freshly cleaned barrel check your speed after 20-30 rounds down the pipe with those bullets. If you speed has dropped off then washing didn’t work. You’ll need to bump your speed up.
If you start with a dirty barrel it likely won’t matter until you deep clean the barrel. Then the coating will likely start transferring to the barrel and reduce pressure and speed. You’ll need to bump the charge to speed it back up.
If you start with a dirty barrel it likely won’t matter until you deep clean the barrel. Then the coating will likely start transferring to the barrel and reduce pressure and speed. You’ll need to bump the charge to speed it back up.
I would say the coating is 99.9% gone lol, but thanks, I will try to remember to pay attention to any speed anomalies if anything wonky shows up.
I wet tumbled them for 2 hours with Armor All Wash & Wax (no pins, figured the bullets would bang into each other plenty), then once they were dry, in the interests of being thorough, I dry tumbled them for 1 hour in corn cob media.. Now they mostly look like the normal bare DTAC's but with a matte finish instead of being shiny... so they're slightly different but I doubt I'll see much difference.
Though, ya never know...
So I took my rifle out for load development today with the 112 match burners. I shot at .06, .08, .09, .1 and .12 off the lands.
Origin action
proof 6mm CM 1/7.5 26"
KRG bravo
Lupua brass(new). Used a 21st century neck mandrel on them.
CCI 450
H4350 40.5 grn for the groups shot. Shame on me, but that is not the charge weight I am going to use. I was trying to do all of my load development last week but only got the ladder shot due to poor ( windy) shooting conditions. After the ladder test I picked 41.0 grn and I checked that today as well. When I tested a 5 shot group today with the 41.0 load I got an ES of 7, at an average of 3034 fps.
Here are my groups. The.06 and .08 were the best. The first 3 on the .6 group were that tight bunch and I threw that last shot low. The .08 group was good. I don't know that I consciously threw that flyer, but it looks decent without it. They did not shoot well at all at .09. I was really thought the .1 group was going to be magic. The first two shots were almost in the same hole. Right after that second shot my target stand blew over and I took about a 20 min break between the first 2 and last 2 shots since I had to wait on the range to go cold so I could fix my target.
I wish I would have shot qt .07 because I think there is a node between.06 and .08. I am going to caveat this all with the fact that I am newish to bolt gun shooting and probably not the best shot. I was shooting prone off the ground with a bipod and a bag.
Origin action
proof 6mm CM 1/7.5 26"
KRG bravo
Lupua brass(new). Used a 21st century neck mandrel on them.
CCI 450
H4350 40.5 grn for the groups shot. Shame on me, but that is not the charge weight I am going to use. I was trying to do all of my load development last week but only got the ladder shot due to poor ( windy) shooting conditions. After the ladder test I picked 41.0 grn and I checked that today as well. When I tested a 5 shot group today with the 41.0 load I got an ES of 7, at an average of 3034 fps.
Here are my groups. The.06 and .08 were the best. The first 3 on the .6 group were that tight bunch and I threw that last shot low. The .08 group was good. I don't know that I consciously threw that flyer, but it looks decent without it. They did not shoot well at all at .09. I was really thought the .1 group was going to be magic. The first two shots were almost in the same hole. Right after that second shot my target stand blew over and I took about a 20 min break between the first 2 and last 2 shots since I had to wait on the range to go cold so I could fix my target.
I wish I would have shot qt .07 because I think there is a node between.06 and .08. I am going to caveat this all with the fact that I am newish to bolt gun shooting and probably not the best shot. I was shooting prone off the ground with a bipod and a bag.
Attachments
I think you might be right. Regardless you should check it since if there is a small group range between .06 and .08 then that will make your load more tolerant to jump changes as the barrel wears.
Without changing anything else, I would load 0.06, 0.07 and 0.08, and shoot 5-shot groups of each.
Or, another way to go would be to load in .005 increments (not overkill) and load 0.06 through 0.08 and shoot three shots each.
Either way, you get more statistical confidence because you are firing more rounds.
At the risk of sounding preachy...
Focus hard on doing everything the same way every time. Same hand position, same bipod preload with the shoulder (unless you are shooting free recoil), same trigger pull, same breathing, and stay relaxed. Take your time, and if something does not feel right, stop, reset, and start over. That will help prevent flyers.
Also if you have parallax adjustment, CHECK YOUR PARALLAX! Do not depend on the distance markings on the adjuster since they are frequently wrong. Adjust the parallax until when you make very, very tiny left-right and up-down movements with your head, the crosshairs and the target move together. After you do this a few times you will get the hang of it and it will become easy.
That ES is excellent. I say you found your load, and you did it with a high quality, very temp stable powder.
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I agree with above in that you might need to double check your parallax... those groups look a lot like ones I used to see before I got in the habit of checking it lol.
Plus, JMHO here, but if the red dots were really your aim points, then you might need a better (calmer) day to really see what you've got going on. It's tough to figure things out when the wind is pushing you an inch or more off at 100yrds, been there too lol. I like to be as confident as I can possibly be in my zero, so I try to set it on a good/calm day if I can, and then I verify it on good days to make sure nothing changes.
Looks promising though in that .060-.100" jump-range, and an ES of 7 is excellent.
Looking at the pics though, at .100" the windage looks great, vertical not so much, with an ES of 7 it probably shouldn't look like that and give you that much vertical stringing in close (if it's just parallax, which it kind of looks like, those holes might've been on top of each other)... you might want to load up a few more and revisit .100-.120" to see if there's something nice there (without the target falling down and an unscheduled "intermission" bahahaha).
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Anyone have some data for H414 and the 6CM, bullets from 105- to 108 grains? Sitting on 8 pounds of it. Pretty sure the burn rate was similar to H4350 and IMR4350 but all the new burn rate charts I have found exclude H414.
An old chart I have shows H 414 shows it as being on the same line as AA 2700 and VVN 540. The chart also shows it as being faster the I 4350 and H 4350. Just have to "google"burn rate charts and see if any of the older ones show it. I think they stopped making it so it's not showing up on any charts
There's some load data for 6 creed & H414 on Hodgdon's site, just nothing heavier than 100 grains: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54
Looks like it lines up pretty close to almost grain-for-grain with H4350 (for 100gr bullets at least)...
Looks like it lines up pretty close to almost grain-for-grain with H4350 (for 100gr bullets at least)...
Your data actually lines up with mine pretty similarly: 44gr StaBall, DTAC 115, new Hornady brass, 26" = 3002fps avg @ 74degF - looks like you might just have a slightly faster barrel and/or are getting a bit more pressure than me, or a million other factors, but they're close.
I'd just keep an eye on your brass (any pressure signs?).
I picked up 15fps going from 61-74degF on virgin brass the other day. I'm super happy averaging around 2987-3002fps, but it gets hot as fuck where I live in the summer... so it's something I'm going to keep my eye on. If it keeps picking up speed, or bolt-lift gets wonky, even if the brass still looks ok, I might redo a mini-ladder between 43-44gr to see if I need to come down a little for shooting when it's 90-100degF.
We're all constantly learning, I haven't been loading rifle for too long either but based on what I've learned, shooting 115gr bullets in 6CM, anything above 2950fps or so without pressure is gravy. So just something to be aware of.
More speed is almost always good: me on my best day would lose to me having my best day with more fps, plain and simple.
That said, StaBall is still pretty new on the scene as far as powders go, and while great for a ball powder, it's still not as temperature stable as a stick powder like H4350/R16, and I've noticed it tends to get spikey towards the top of its limit. I don't want to find out the hard way that I've got pressure issues in the summer... so no big deal where I'm at, but I'll keep paying attention in case I've got to back it down a bit.
Lot more to do with SD's than just powder...
But, yes, in the single digits, ~SD of 7-9, and that's dropping powder straight from the measure into the cases. No trickling anything. I'm too cheap to buy what it'd take for me to go back to stick powder and load as fast as I do now and not go crazy.
Though, seems StaBall comes alive approaching full case fill. In my experience, at 41.5gr it's slower than H4350, then, seems like ~43gr it starts to get really good numbers-wise, and kind of picks up faster than H4350 (but also becomes more spikey).
I actually found a lower node with my previous barrel at 41.5gr going 2850ish that shot great, but had SD's around 11-13. I'm probably a slightly better reloader now, so I might be able to lower that number.
A load shooting around 2900fps would be great as far as I'm concerned, so I might do a mini-ladder between 43-44gr to see if I can land about there. I feel like that would give me peace of mind to not have to worry about pressure when the weather gets hot these next few months.
An SD of 12 isn't that bad really, that's better than pretty much any factory "match" ammo one can get off a shelf, keep that in perspective. As you perfect your reloading technique that number may decrease and it might not have anything to do with powder.
You can do a seating depth test with any (safe) charge you want... charge weight affecting group-size is more barrel-tuner territory IMO.
I've converted to doing the seating depth test first, to determine a jump range the barrel/bullet combo likes, then powder after, using a chrono to determine speed. If it's a coin flip I pick the higher node, but I may be leaning the other way now towards picking the "slower" node with StaBall, not sure yet...
Ok, so public service announcement for 6CM guys using StaBall: remember, it's temperature stable for a ball powder, it's not the same as H4350 or the better stick powders. Be sure to consider the temperatures you'll be shooting in when working up a load (if you aren't already)... because like a dumbass, I didn't consider it enough and it almost caught up with me.
I was used to Hodgdon H4350 because that's what I have the most experience with (besides StaBall), so loading with it, I never really considered the temps I'd be shooting in too much as H4350 hadn't ever really changed enough for me to worry about.
I had settled on a load at the beginning of March that was hammering at 2987fps at 61degF, kicked ass for a couple hundred rounds... well, same load at 80degF was showing spikes up near ~3100fps: pretty fucking fast for a 115 grainer (still hammering though). The brass looked ok, couldn't really find any obvious pressure signs, but the case heads were suspiciously more shiny than usual. I decided to shoot the last 5 rounds left from a batch over the chrono: 3 of them had an average of ~3020fps (fast for a 115, but fine by me), but 1 was ~3050, and 1 was 3098fps!
Ran the brass though the prep process and when I started to prime I could tell I must've been running some pretty high pressures because 10-20 of the primer pockets were loose enough to where I know they won't be holding on long, might be done after this firing, and this is only the second loading, almost still-new brass. fuck.
Anyways, I decided to work up a load considering the average temps I'll be shooting in over the next few months so I don't have to dick around with it all summer. Sadly, in Tennessee that means ~50degF in the mornings, to 100+degF for highs, it gets seriously ugly hot and sticky here a lot of the summer, average is 80degF.
New load is: 41.3gr StaBall, DTAC115, CCI200, CBTO 2.215" = 2852fps @ 62degF ES24* SD8*
* I know I could easily lower these ES and SD numbers, but this is just dropped straight into cases with a ~$50 powder measure, using a ~$50 scale, no trickling anything, powder for 100rds takes me about 15 minutes going slow... this is why I'm converted to using StaBall.
Sounds a little slow, but messing around with Strelok, that should put me at ~2896fps @ 79degF (TN summer average temp) and hopefully ~2950fps worst-case/sweating-ass-off at 100degF. Still plenty fast for a 115gr IMO, but enough cushion built-in so I shouldn't have to worry about pressure spikes. Plus, shouldn't toast my barrel quite as fast.
A happy-accident of all this is that I had never really chrono'd and looked at the lower load range with StaBall properly. The lowest I had run with StaBall was 41.5gr, and I landed on that load with a good guess that ended up hammering with an SD of 7 when I chrono'd it later (if only I was always so lucky in life). I did a mini-ladder from 42.4-43.4gr and was still faster than I wanted, so I did another one from 41-42.2gr. Biggest/widest node I've ever seen, I could probably pick anything between 41-42gr and be just fine, they were all within ~60fps, I picked what looked like the flattest of the flat spots.
I shot exactly one group at 100 then went straight to fun and steel at 400 because I was sick of load development shit, I'll take it out past 1000 hopefully this week. My bullet-jump still seems to be working, somewhere between .100-.120" of jump, no idea where the lands are and don't care. Felt like I pulled one... ;-)
I was used to Hodgdon H4350 because that's what I have the most experience with (besides StaBall), so loading with it, I never really considered the temps I'd be shooting in too much as H4350 hadn't ever really changed enough for me to worry about.
I had settled on a load at the beginning of March that was hammering at 2987fps at 61degF, kicked ass for a couple hundred rounds... well, same load at 80degF was showing spikes up near ~3100fps: pretty fucking fast for a 115 grainer (still hammering though). The brass looked ok, couldn't really find any obvious pressure signs, but the case heads were suspiciously more shiny than usual. I decided to shoot the last 5 rounds left from a batch over the chrono: 3 of them had an average of ~3020fps (fast for a 115, but fine by me), but 1 was ~3050, and 1 was 3098fps!
Ran the brass though the prep process and when I started to prime I could tell I must've been running some pretty high pressures because 10-20 of the primer pockets were loose enough to where I know they won't be holding on long, might be done after this firing, and this is only the second loading, almost still-new brass. fuck.
Anyways, I decided to work up a load considering the average temps I'll be shooting in over the next few months so I don't have to dick around with it all summer. Sadly, in Tennessee that means ~50degF in the mornings, to 100+degF for highs, it gets seriously ugly hot and sticky here a lot of the summer, average is 80degF.
New load is: 41.3gr StaBall, DTAC115, CCI200, CBTO 2.215" = 2852fps @ 62degF ES24* SD8*
* I know I could easily lower these ES and SD numbers, but this is just dropped straight into cases with a ~$50 powder measure, using a ~$50 scale, no trickling anything, powder for 100rds takes me about 15 minutes going slow... this is why I'm converted to using StaBall.
Sounds a little slow, but messing around with Strelok, that should put me at ~2896fps @ 79degF (TN summer average temp) and hopefully ~2950fps worst-case/sweating-ass-off at 100degF. Still plenty fast for a 115gr IMO, but enough cushion built-in so I shouldn't have to worry about pressure spikes. Plus, shouldn't toast my barrel quite as fast.
A happy-accident of all this is that I had never really chrono'd and looked at the lower load range with StaBall properly. The lowest I had run with StaBall was 41.5gr, and I landed on that load with a good guess that ended up hammering with an SD of 7 when I chrono'd it later (if only I was always so lucky in life). I did a mini-ladder from 42.4-43.4gr and was still faster than I wanted, so I did another one from 41-42.2gr. Biggest/widest node I've ever seen, I could probably pick anything between 41-42gr and be just fine, they were all within ~60fps, I picked what looked like the flattest of the flat spots.
I shot exactly one group at 100 then went straight to fun and steel at 400 because I was sick of load development shit, I'll take it out past 1000 hopefully this week. My bullet-jump still seems to be working, somewhere between .100-.120" of jump, no idea where the lands are and don't care. Felt like I pulled one... ;-)
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@ceekay1 Im running a slow node too. DTACs at 2885 with 39.6 grains of RL16 in Lapua cases with a 24” barrel. Pressure is only around 58K psi and water safe. I look at it like I’m running Dasher speeds without having to use special mags and/kits for reliable feeding.
Exactly!
I'd been kicking around the idea of going to a 6BR/BRA, Dasher, 6GT, etc... but honestly the 6CM is just fine and probably less of a pain in the ass to live with.
My 300 yard group with
Jp enterprise brass
112MB
42.1gr staball
26" Savage takeoff barrel
2925 fps
That is right about 1/2 with almost no load development. Good enough for me
Jp enterprise brass
112MB
42.1gr staball
26" Savage takeoff barrel
2925 fps
That is right about 1/2 with almost no load development. Good enough for me
I'm very new to reloading so my question might be dumb, and I would honestly appreciate being told if that's the case.
I have a 6CM on order from PVA, I am getting into reloading with this cartridge and am slowly acquiring components; I'll be shooting from a 26" barrel and I'm not concerned with burning through a barrel. I have 8lbs of RL26 that I was going to start load development with but there is a local Hide member that has IMR 4451 that I can trade 1-1 with.
My question is thus, should I get the 4451 for starting out? Or, just stick with with RL26 and try to grab some others and learn with several powders? Obviously, I'm trying to maximize my round performance during my learning curve while minimizing cost. Again, I'm a knuckle dragger so feel free to learn me.
I have a 6CM on order from PVA, I am getting into reloading with this cartridge and am slowly acquiring components; I'll be shooting from a 26" barrel and I'm not concerned with burning through a barrel. I have 8lbs of RL26 that I was going to start load development with but there is a local Hide member that has IMR 4451 that I can trade 1-1 with.
My question is thus, should I get the 4451 for starting out? Or, just stick with with RL26 and try to grab some others and learn with several powders? Obviously, I'm trying to maximize my round performance during my learning curve while minimizing cost. Again, I'm a knuckle dragger so feel free to learn me.
Keep the RL26. That's a good start.
Typically, H4340 and RL16 are the "go-to's" with 6CM, but H4831SC and RL26 are up there too, recently StaBall is in the mix and new on the scene.
My recommendation would be to try and stay as close to an already proven recipe at the start. Using a recipe that's already been working for somebody who knows shit, you'll at least know you've got the right ingredients and won't have to wonder about that part.
Check this out if you haven't already: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2019/09/06/6mm-6-5-creedmoor-load-data/
When I started out I basically copied a load straight out of that article using 108ELD-M's and H4350 and my rounds were better than most guy's I know, and I didn't really know much of anything about reloading for rifle.
After a while you start to get a feel for what different stuff is working for different guys (and for you), and then you can experiment a bit. But this shit is too expensive for anyone to really pull combos/recipes out of the air, and too dangerous to just try whatever... guys make informed guesses. Though, there's absolutely nothing wrong with sticking with what works and what you know either.
IMO a huge part of reloading is more about consistency, not just components: do everything the same, continually perfect your process... making good shit is hard and we're all constantly learning and improving as we go. Good ammo isn't just ammo anymore, it's also art considering how much time and care goes into it.
Remember though, shooting is the hobby NOT reloading.
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Thank you for the direct answer. Your earlier posts throughout this thread have been educational.
I grabbed the rl26 as I had found several reported good loads on accurateshooter that I plan on following. 4350 would be great to get but I haven't been able to order fast enough when its in stock. I'll check out that article, thanks.
I would trade one lb.........just to see what the 4451 does ( RL 26 is "gold " right now ,hang on to it ) ..........Superformance is my friend with 108 s...give it a try ,you may likey too.
I have never gotten close to single digit SDs with Berger, Hornady or Prime ammunition in either of my 6 Creeds. Reloads, yes.
I think consistent neck tension is the final frontier on the path to standard deviation nirvana. IMO nice even/consistent bullet-seating pressure seems to directly correlate to even/consistent neck tension, and better SD’s.
A better scale will surely help your cause... but I know for me it took me resigning to add a couple more steps: adding a mandrel and annealing every time, to get down to regularly seeing single digit SD’s.
Sucks to make a slow process slower, but after I went down that road (and it worked), no going back. I don’t ever think I’ll go so deep that I’m turning necks, uniforming flash holes, and weighing brass and bullets... but truth is I’m already converted to doing about twice as many steps as I said I would ever do when I started... making good ammo just requires kind of a lot.
Hi all, I've got a 6mm CM gas gun being built and am working on getting all the components set up to reload when it gets here. I'm planning on using the Redding Type-S bushing dies, since that's what I have for everything else. What bushings will I need to order to use with lapua or Peterson brass? Even better, does anyone know the loaded neck diameter of a 6CM in Lapua and/or Peterson brass? TIA.
Every brand and even lot of brass is different as far as thickness... and sometimes it changes a little over time as multiple loadings/firings add up. I'd say grab a .267", .268", and .269" and you should be covered. If you were only going to buy one, my guess would be .268".
Thanks, I wanted to buy several to cover a range of neck tensions - so that's perfect.
settled upon a pussycat load of 38.5 gn of VV N160 in lapua brass, CCI 450, 105 Berger Hybrids, going out at 2865fps SD 1 ES 4 over a sample of 10 rounds.
another recipe I developed just in case I have to change components, that has more or less the same consistency is 42.5 gn of Norma MRP behind 109 Bergers LHRT, 2935 fps SD3 ES 10
both PRS match proven, I'll call 'em good. YMMV as usual, guys...
another recipe I developed just in case I have to change components, that has more or less the same consistency is 42.5 gn of Norma MRP behind 109 Bergers LHRT, 2935 fps SD3 ES 10
both PRS match proven, I'll call 'em good. YMMV as usual, guys...
Wanted to update the thread now that my barrel has somewhere around ~700rds on it since I had posted about the load development for it a couple months ago...
FWIW/TLDR, I used a fairly unconventional method: no barrel break-in whatsoever, no OCW nonsense, found my bullet-jump range first, then picked a speed second (then picked a slower speed because summer). Traditionally, it'd be powder followed by seating depth, nope.
Didn't go anywhere near the lands and didn't want to, found a jump range of 0.080-0.120" off-jam that looked good (0.100" looked great) and haven't touched it since (for me it's the same CBTO 2.215" as at the start).
I don't know exactly how much the throat has eroded and don't care as it's given me no reason to measure it. I don't have a borescope (and don't want one thanks, too OCD to have that kind of torture around), but I have shined a bright ass Surefire in there and the throat looks freaking great!
I also did something that might sound a little odd to some in that I stuck with what is considered a longish SAAMI 0.183" freebore. Based on how the throat looks and how the gun is shooting I've pretty much decided I'm going to go to an even longer 0.200" or longer freebore next time I order a barrel (I've already got a second copy spun up of the one I'm shooting now, which hammers, so that's fine).
Why longer freebore? Well because instead of 6CM meaning a short ~1500rds of barrel life: I think with a reasonable powder charge, longer freebore, and a healthy bullet-jump, we're looking at more like 2000+ maybe even 2500rds before a barrel is KIA. My super complicated theory is: the further away the throat is from the fire, the slower it cooks, and since I already know my gun shoots good with 0.080" of jump and great with a 0.100" jump, instead of starting at 0.080" and cooking/eroding until 0.100", why not just start at .100" and stay there longer.
Anyways, another thing is, I've decided I agree with the sentiment that finding flat spots and nodes with certain charge weights over the chronograph is bullshit (there's another thread on it going). IMO it's way more likely just a Rorschach test we perform on ourselves while wasting components; we see what we want to see. In the future I may shoot a short ladder just to get a feel for where MV is with a new barrel, but that's it. I'm just going to pick a speed and figure out how many grains that takes, period.
Speaking of speed: I averaged a perfectly boring and uninspiring 2906fps pushing a 115gr DTAC in 80degF 30.1Hg. Just as I'd hoped. Faster is always better, except when it's not: I think in most people's case it's probably better to have a barrel/gun that you can shoot a longer time, get used to, and have confidence in (not to mention not have to mess with), than saving you a couple mils of clicks at 1000yrds and only being a little better in the wind.
OK, so how's the barrel working? I haven't shot a single group at anything closer than 500yrds in like a month, and today I decided to check my speed over the chrono for 5 rounds. I shoot all my chrono rounds right into the berm/dirt and never put up a target, but someone left a target up on the 100yrd zeroing board at our range and it just happened to be right in line with my chrono so I picked an orange dot and casually lined it up each time as I fired my rounds. I shot all 5 rounds at only 6X power on the scope (so I could avoid shooting my chrono)... I should've taken a picture, but, it was one fucking hole, couldn't do better if I tried.
This is 7 rounds off bipod/bag at 1250yrds, 3 on the big plate, 4 on the IPSC (2 on top of each other). I'd say it's still shooting ok.
I'm going to update the thread periodically as things go, see how long I go before I have to adjust my seating depth (IF I ever even need to), and how long it goes before it dies, etc.
FWIW/TLDR, I used a fairly unconventional method: no barrel break-in whatsoever, no OCW nonsense, found my bullet-jump range first, then picked a speed second (then picked a slower speed because summer). Traditionally, it'd be powder followed by seating depth, nope.
Didn't go anywhere near the lands and didn't want to, found a jump range of 0.080-0.120" off-jam that looked good (0.100" looked great) and haven't touched it since (for me it's the same CBTO 2.215" as at the start).
I don't know exactly how much the throat has eroded and don't care as it's given me no reason to measure it. I don't have a borescope (and don't want one thanks, too OCD to have that kind of torture around), but I have shined a bright ass Surefire in there and the throat looks freaking great!
I also did something that might sound a little odd to some in that I stuck with what is considered a longish SAAMI 0.183" freebore. Based on how the throat looks and how the gun is shooting I've pretty much decided I'm going to go to an even longer 0.200" or longer freebore next time I order a barrel (I've already got a second copy spun up of the one I'm shooting now, which hammers, so that's fine).
Why longer freebore? Well because instead of 6CM meaning a short ~1500rds of barrel life: I think with a reasonable powder charge, longer freebore, and a healthy bullet-jump, we're looking at more like 2000+ maybe even 2500rds before a barrel is KIA. My super complicated theory is: the further away the throat is from the fire, the slower it cooks, and since I already know my gun shoots good with 0.080" of jump and great with a 0.100" jump, instead of starting at 0.080" and cooking/eroding until 0.100", why not just start at .100" and stay there longer.
Anyways, another thing is, I've decided I agree with the sentiment that finding flat spots and nodes with certain charge weights over the chronograph is bullshit (there's another thread on it going). IMO it's way more likely just a Rorschach test we perform on ourselves while wasting components; we see what we want to see. In the future I may shoot a short ladder just to get a feel for where MV is with a new barrel, but that's it. I'm just going to pick a speed and figure out how many grains that takes, period.
Speaking of speed: I averaged a perfectly boring and uninspiring 2906fps pushing a 115gr DTAC in 80degF 30.1Hg. Just as I'd hoped. Faster is always better, except when it's not: I think in most people's case it's probably better to have a barrel/gun that you can shoot a longer time, get used to, and have confidence in (not to mention not have to mess with), than saving you a couple mils of clicks at 1000yrds and only being a little better in the wind.
OK, so how's the barrel working? I haven't shot a single group at anything closer than 500yrds in like a month, and today I decided to check my speed over the chrono for 5 rounds. I shoot all my chrono rounds right into the berm/dirt and never put up a target, but someone left a target up on the 100yrd zeroing board at our range and it just happened to be right in line with my chrono so I picked an orange dot and casually lined it up each time as I fired my rounds. I shot all 5 rounds at only 6X power on the scope (so I could avoid shooting my chrono)... I should've taken a picture, but, it was one fucking hole, couldn't do better if I tried.
This is 7 rounds off bipod/bag at 1250yrds, 3 on the big plate, 4 on the IPSC (2 on top of each other). I'd say it's still shooting ok.
I'm going to update the thread periodically as things go, see how long I go before I have to adjust my seating depth (IF I ever even need to), and how long it goes before it dies, etc.
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Nice post^^^^
I’m shooting 107gr SMK’s over Varget currently. In the cooler weather, 60F, I was averaging about 3k. Now that we are at 100F, need to figure out how much to reduce the charge to stay at the same velocity. Similarly, not trying to cook the barrel with laser beam fast loads.
I’m shooting 107gr SMK’s over Varget currently. In the cooler weather, 60F, I was averaging about 3k. Now that we are at 100F, need to figure out how much to reduce the charge to stay at the same velocity. Similarly, not trying to cook the barrel with laser beam fast loads.
So if I read you correctly the shortest COAL was 2.841" and you're going with 2.844" as your seating depth..?
Just seems kind of conservative for someone who melted a bunch of fragile egos with the velocity-nodes-myth thread.
Honestly surprised you didn't try a decent sized jump, should make the load more forgiving so maybe it'd work better in both rifles depending on what bullet you're shooting...
How far are you jumping and what bullet?
BTW, cool guns, Centurion? Like it? What's it weigh? Thx
My 28" krieger 7.5" twist settled in cold weather at 41.5grs H4350 but i have backed it off to 41.2 grs with 109LRHT berger. I have a new proof 7.5" twist i'll be bringing on soon. Hoping and expecting to be near same powder charge. I ran seating depth test at 400 yds. Groups were same size and point of impact from .020 to .050 so i stayed at .020" and let them go.
@thestoicmarcusaurelius those are awesome looking tools!!! and great shooting!!
@thestoicmarcusaurelius those are awesome looking tools!!! and great shooting!!
Cool.
Don't go burning up a bunch of components, but I know that the info in the articles on precisionrifleblog.com with the Mark Gordon data was nearly spot on for me with DTAC's, the articles said DTAC's were best for them jumping .060-.080", and sure enough, my rifle ended up digging a jump .080" or longer, loving ~.100". I would've never tried that far off if I hadn't read that someone already burned a bunch of rounds trying it, but now I'm a believer for sure.
IIRC they had data on the 105HT's (similar to the 109LRHT's) and believe they said they become much more forgiving out past ~.060" off too. I would just say it probably wouldn't be a waste to load a few up just to see what you get with a pretty good jump? You might be surprised (I know I was).
If those Proof barrels are SAAMI freebore I'd guess you're somewhere in the ~.020" off-jam neighborhood at 2.844"?
I haven't touched mine and I know it's jumping a mile (I was ~.080" off-jam 600rds ago) but the rifle has just been hammering... Super consistent at distance and think the only thing that keeps me from keeping all the holes touching at 100 is me.
Don't go burning up a bunch of components, but I know that the info in the articles on precisionrifleblog.com with the Mark Gordon data was nearly spot on for me with DTAC's, the articles said DTAC's were best for them jumping .060-.080", and sure enough, my rifle ended up digging a jump .080" or longer, loving ~.100". I would've never tried that far off if I hadn't read that someone already burned a bunch of rounds trying it, but now I'm a believer for sure.
IIRC they had data on the 105HT's (similar to the 109LRHT's) and believe they said they become much more forgiving out past ~.060" off too. I would just say it probably wouldn't be a waste to load a few up just to see what you get with a pretty good jump? You might be surprised (I know I was).
If those Proof barrels are SAAMI freebore I'd guess you're somewhere in the ~.020" off-jam neighborhood at 2.844"?
I haven't touched mine and I know it's jumping a mile (I was ~.080" off-jam 600rds ago) but the rifle has just been hammering... Super consistent at distance and think the only thing that keeps me from keeping all the holes touching at 100 is me.
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...wanted to add: I think I'm going to try to break the habit of using 100 yard groups as the absolute defining metric to make load decisions. I've been thinking about it and I believe there comes a point where one's group size at 100 isn't really telling you anything.
I mean we all have good days and bad days, and some of us (like me) kind of suck a shooting groups sometimes (and maybe don't really care to practice much at getting better at it when it's way more fun to do other stuff). And I just feel like sometimes there's only so much that can be gleaned from one's 100yrd groups anyways, because it's not like we fire them in a lab with the gun locked in a mechanical rest and fired remotely in perfect conditions, there are just so many other variables in play.
I think aside from initial load work-up, if I'm going to shoot paper, from now on I think I'm going to get in the habit of shooting at 200yrds more, not just for keeping tabs on how my rifle/load is shooting, but just as better and more interesting marksmanship practice. Still close enough to where wind isn't really much of a factor, but I feel like it's far enough where I'm not going to be bummed when the first two rounds aren't touching or whatever, and it'll actually be a better distance to make a better judgment on what the gun/load is capable of vs what the shooter is capable of... I feel like we probably don't compare what we get at 100 with what we get at 200 nearly enough.
I mean we all have good days and bad days, and some of us (like me) kind of suck a shooting groups sometimes (and maybe don't really care to practice much at getting better at it when it's way more fun to do other stuff). And I just feel like sometimes there's only so much that can be gleaned from one's 100yrd groups anyways, because it's not like we fire them in a lab with the gun locked in a mechanical rest and fired remotely in perfect conditions, there are just so many other variables in play.
I think aside from initial load work-up, if I'm going to shoot paper, from now on I think I'm going to get in the habit of shooting at 200yrds more, not just for keeping tabs on how my rifle/load is shooting, but just as better and more interesting marksmanship practice. Still close enough to where wind isn't really much of a factor, but I feel like it's far enough where I'm not going to be bummed when the first two rounds aren't touching or whatever, and it'll actually be a better distance to make a better judgment on what the gun/load is capable of vs what the shooter is capable of... I feel like we probably don't compare what we get at 100 with what we get at 200 nearly enough.
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Hmmmmmm..... I've recently been thinking the same thing about the validity of 100 yd groups. I know I get mentally bummed out if all the holes are not touching and think it's a shit load if they are not. But that's likely causing me to burn up a lot of barrel life chasing that perfect 1 hole group. I may try the 200 yd thing and see how it goes.
To me, with shooting groups, and really just being too caught up with the development side of things, sometimes it's nice to just not sweat it and just shoot... if the rifle is hammering at 600+ who really cares ya know?
Sometimes we spend too much time dissecting how our guns/loads are shooting, and one bad day of shooting shitty groups and we can lose a little confidence in a gun/load that's working just fine and probably doesn't need to be fucked with. The biggest variable is almost always us.
What's funny is: I've been messing with my scope height/comb height/eye relief and haven't even really had a chance to shoot until the other day, so I had to rezero... took 2 shots to get it centered and then I got on and off the gun 3 or 4 times for 1 round each to keep myself honest that my zero is really zero, but was paying more attention to my new gun fit and wasn't really thinking about any group. One hole, all the rounds touching, so apparently my gun is still shooting fine and I can shoot groups, I just can't shoot them when I'm actually trying to shoot them.
I'm totally doing the 200yrd group thing this week sometime. I'm going to try to remember to shoot a couple groups at 200 and/or 300 on paper each outing instead of just hitting steel. Better practice, still get to keep tabs on the load/gun.
That's about as good as it gets. sick.
Those are some great numbers, but how does it shoot? I've had some loads that shoot 1 hole groups with 20+ SDs and others that looked like a shotgun 00 pattern with single digit SD's. Also with a Labradar. So I'm not 100% convinced that low SD's are the end-all, be-all of load dev.
Haha, I'm trying to imagine you having your chrono duct taped to your dog......
That's enough to tell you what you need to know. I'd say they're going where you want, and if it wasn't windy you need to come over a click.
Heading out Monday to a 1000 yd range with a small group. Twisted on a Proof Carbon Fibre from a fantastic member on here. Really hoping this barrel turns out to be a winner.
Happy Father's Day guys!
PSA/FYI/BTW:
If anyone is looking for bullets, I just scooped up 2000 Barnes 112gr Match Burners from ol' Larry at Midway USA for $0.30 a bullet (100ct boxes), there doesn't seem to be a quantity limit in-place, I checked out no problem.
Are they DTAC's? nope. Are they close, in-stock, and selling at a pre-corona price? yep .
PSA/FYI/BTW:
If anyone is looking for bullets, I just scooped up 2000 Barnes 112gr Match Burners from ol' Larry at Midway USA for $0.30 a bullet (100ct boxes), there doesn't seem to be a quantity limit in-place, I checked out no problem.
Are they DTAC's? nope. Are they close, in-stock, and selling at a pre-corona price? yep .
RPR 6 Creed. Steel coyotes at 1000. Approx 80% hit rate.
Got a chance to shoot today and actually remembered to put a group on paper at 200 yards. 1 group, 5 rounds. I shot it pretty fast and didn't try too hard. I tried to stay relaxed so I could get an "average snapshot" of how the barrel/load is hanging in there (now that I've got ~700-800rds on the barrel). I left my scope at 16x (which is where I leave it 90% of the time when I shoot, figured it'd give me the best idea of what type of "cone of fire" I'm rolling with).
It had been forever since I'd shot a group on paper and there was a little right to left wind, pulled one of course, but overall I'm pretty pleased: told me what I wanted to know.
~0.5 MOA, which is fine as far as I'm concerned. I'm just going to leave it alone for now and not touch anything unless I see something wonky, but for now, when I miss, it's me, can't blame it on the gun/load. Could I do better? Probably. Do I want to burn rounds shooting groups all day to make sure? Nope.
So, still no idea where the lands are, started with a 0.080" jump to jam ~500-600rds ago (guessing it's jumping more than .100" by now?), still hammering.
I think I definitely prefer shooting a group at further than 100yrds for something like this (a sort of "maintenance group"), was fun for a change of pace, and didn't feel like a chore like shooting groups can sometimes...
It had been forever since I'd shot a group on paper and there was a little right to left wind, pulled one of course, but overall I'm pretty pleased: told me what I wanted to know.
~0.5 MOA, which is fine as far as I'm concerned. I'm just going to leave it alone for now and not touch anything unless I see something wonky, but for now, when I miss, it's me, can't blame it on the gun/load. Could I do better? Probably. Do I want to burn rounds shooting groups all day to make sure? Nope.
So, still no idea where the lands are, started with a 0.080" jump to jam ~500-600rds ago (guessing it's jumping more than .100" by now?), still hammering.
I think I definitely prefer shooting a group at further than 100yrds for something like this (a sort of "maintenance group"), was fun for a change of pace, and didn't feel like a chore like shooting groups can sometimes...
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