6gt

[Birddog6424]

Barrel length?

26" Hawk Hill

I personally went with the slower one. Mine is 2870 but less recoil and can see trace better. Plus not as hard on the barrel.

It's interesting to see the results play out on WEZ.. This doesn't go to 2950fps, but it shows the difference in 75fps from 2875 to 2800.

The probability played out mathematically equates to about 1 miss per 100 shots on a 1.5moa target at 700 yards with a plus or minus in the wind call of 2.5mph. It goes up to 2 misses per 100 shots on a 2moa target at 1000 yards.



So the question is, does the ability to sometimes be able to spot your trace offset the miss probability you incur by slowing down the round...

Edit; And I should add, does the .6 to .8 grains needed to get from 2870 to 2950fps really noticeable in felt recoil? We are talking a 2% increase in charge weight. Can a person feel that?

 

[tlsmith22]

Just curious what is the COAL with?

COAL is 2.560” on both

 

[Bolt Thrower]

Winchester StaBALL 6.5 in stock at Midsouth...
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....inchester-staball-6half-smokeless-powder-1-lb

 

[Bolt Thrower]

My 6gt matchmaster dies from GAP never came with a bushing, like the description said. Hopefully it was just a mistake.

Same with mine. I emailed Ken, he said they forgot and sent one out.

 

[Darkside-Six]

26" Hawk Hill



It's interesting to see the results play out on WEZ.. This doesn't go to 2950fps, but it shows the difference in 75fps from 2875 to 2800.

The probability played out mathematically equates to about 1 miss per 100 shots on a 1.5moa target at 700 yards with a plus or minus in the wind call of 2.5mph. It goes up to 2 misses per 100 shots on a 2moa target at 1000 yards.



So the question is, does the ability to sometimes be able to spot your trace offset the miss probability you incur by slowing down the round...

Edit; And I should add, does the .6 to .8 grains needed to get from 2870 to 2950fps really noticeable in felt recoil? We are talking a 2% increase in charge weight. Can a person feel that?

I’m not really buying the miss probability being related to how fast or slow you’re running. If it’s a .5 MOA gun and a .5 MOA shooter how does running 100fps faster give you more hit probability?

I’ve never been one to chase “speed” I find a good load and go with it.
In my case, it’s a 1.3 grain difference in the loads and yes the recoil is noticeable.
I’m sure there’s a reason why many of the top shooters run 6mm on the slower side.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Elevation and windage danger space. It's math. You're confusing 2 parts shooting ability overpowering 1 part smaller danger space and then making the assumption slower is better

Ok. I can buy that. Then the question is, why do many top shooters run slower speeds? I’m not saying I’m just trying to copy what they do (obviously theyre successful) I’ve always just ran on the slower, safer side.

 

[verdugo60]

Ok. I can buy that. Then the question is, why do many top shooters run slower speeds? I’m not saying I’m just trying to copy what they do (obviously theyre successful) I’ve always just ran on the slower, safer side.

Here’s something else to think about, copied from bird dog’s post above:

“So the question is, does the ability to sometimes be able to spot your trace offset the miss probability you incur by slowing down the round...”

Also, just from a consistency and reliability perspective I prefer a more low pressure node, as do many experienced shooters. When rifles get dusty, wet, filled with carbon, whatever you’re better off with a low-pressure load vs one on the ragged edge in ideal conditions that will blow a primer when you shoot in your first rainstorm or whatever.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I have a hard time with the slower velocity = better able to spot trace thing. It's going around a lot these days. I guess being 6'4" and weighing 240lbs perhaps the effect is reduced on me, but I just don't see someone actually noticing 75fps difference in recoil. Going from a 140gr bullet at 2900 to a 105 at 2850, yes. But at some point, same bullet weight and just a few fps I can't and haven't seen a real difference. If someone has, I would ask, how many mrad of reticle shift in follow through and recovery are you seeing per 50fps? Is this quantifiable or...?

I’m the same size as you. 6’4” 245. As I said, the difference in my load running 34.5 Varget at 2950 and 33.2 running 2870 is noticeable for me. It’s not the end all, be all decision factor on why I chose the slower load, just a perk. I haven’t even tried to pay attention room to how many Mil or tenth miles of reticle shift there is between the two, I’m going by feel. I have no problem shooting either one and have done so it matches with no issues. I just prefer the slower one. I think Verdugo above made some good comparisons as to why I prefer the slower load.

 

[Birddog6424]

I have a hard time with the slower velocity = better able to spot trace thing. It's going around a lot these days. I guess being 6'4" and weighing 240lbs perhaps the effect is reduced on me, but I just don't see someone actually noticing 75fps difference in recoil. Going from a 140gr bullet at 2900 to a 105 at 2850, yes. But at some point, same bullet weight and just a few fps I can't and haven't seen a real difference. If someone has, I would ask, how many mrad of reticle shift in follow through and recovery are you seeing per 50fps? Is this quantifiable or...?

I would also have a hard time believing that the small increase in velocity can be felt in increased recoil.

I also think @verdugo60 makes a good point. The reliability and easy to shoot factor has some merit. If you can run that load for a really long portion of your barrel life without having to tinker with it, thats good value.

So again, we're at tomato tomatto, does the 2950fps node, or any higher node run the ragged edge. Does it make the load more finicky, or are we running the lower node for no real reason because the higher node is just as good in every category.

It seems like a lot of people are running at 2950. I would think its safe to say they found a higher node above that one and deemed it too high, so came back to 2950 as their load.

 

[verdugo60]

I have a hard time with the slower velocity = better able to spot trace thing. It's going around a lot these days. I guess being 6'4" and weighing 240lbs perhaps the effect is reduced on me, but I just don't see someone actually noticing 75fps difference in recoil. Going from a 140gr bullet at 2900 to a 105 at 2850, yes. But at some point, same bullet weight and just a few fps I can't and haven't seen a real difference. If someone has, I would ask, how many mrad of reticle shift in follow through and recovery are you seeing per 50fps? Is this quantifiable or...?

I’m also not a small fella and I’m not recoil sensitive but I have realized I see trace the most when shooting in the evening with my 233 AI pushing 88 ELD-m’s about 2800 fps. I think the angle of sun and cooling air has as much to do with that as the caliber. I can say there’s a noticeable recoil difference between a 6mm CM with a 105 hybrid doing 3000+ vs a 6GT going 2850

Jake Vibbert talked on his podcast about why he runs his comp guns so slow, I think 2750-2770 fps with the 110 A-Tip. A lot had to do with the consistency throughout barrel life and avoiding pressure, etc. If I understood him correctly though he also said he felt like he saw trace better because the bullet was moving slower. That actually makes sense to me, maybe it’s not recoil so much as the eye can pick it up better when it’s moving 100 fps slower.

Lots of little variables to think about and I’m not a top ten match shooter yet so there’s lots of other things for me to focus on but it’s an interesting discussion when the points spread is so tight at the top. Trust competitors to try to exploit any real or perceived advantage, lol.

 

[FOHA1]

Had a good load for 105 Bergers and RL16, but was able to score 2700 109's before things got crazy. Have always had best ES and SD's near max so we'll see. Called the Berger tech line and they gave me a 35.7g max load, so loaded up 5 shots of each from 35.7 to 34.1. We'll see where the node is. Any guesses?

25" Benchmark barrel, Badger action, yada, yada.

Here's the results from yesterday's testing. 1x fired GAP brass, CCI 450's 109 Berger LR Hybrids

74*, 34%RH, 2595' DA COAL 2.58"

FPS SD ES
34.1g - 2897 - 9.7 - 19
34.3g - 2910- 13.9 - 32
34.5g - 2900 - 6.0 - 14
34.7g - 2930 - 8.2 - 19
34.9g - 2929 - 4.8 - 13
35.1g - 2944 - 10.0 - 25
35.3g - 2951 - 8.1 - 21
35.5g - 2960 - 17.2 - 39
35.7g - 2971 - 8.6 -20
.

 

[kindabitey]

Had a good load for 105 Bergers and RL16, but was able to score 2700 109's before things got crazy. Have always had best ES and SD's near max so we'll see. Called the Berger tech line and they gave me a 35.7g max load, so loaded up 5 shots of each from 35.7 to 34.1. We'll see where the node is. Any guesses?

25" Benchmark barrel, Badger action, yada, yada.

Mine was 36.6 with 105s/ RL16

 

[FOHA1]

37.3g of RL16 and 105s in GAP brass got me 3004fps wtth single digit SD and ES.

 

[Bolt Thrower]

GAP has Hornady 6GT brass back in stock.
https://www.gaprecision.net/ga-store/reloading-brass/hornady-6mm-gt-brass.html

 

[xocyrusx]

I received 300 from GAP last week and they were freshly annealed. From other places they weren’t. It sure if it’s timing...

 

[Bolt Thrower]

I received 300 from GAP last week and they were freshly annealed. From other places they weren’t. It sure if it’s timing...

I received 200 from GAP around month ago, it was also freshly annealed and arrived in great condition with a few extras. Customer service was also very good.

 

[NiteQwill]

Anyone neck turning the Hornady brass? I received 400x pieces yesterday, pulled 20pcs to sample, ran a mandrel to uniform necks, and one side the neck is 0.0125, the other 0.0135 this was consistent on all 20 cases I measured, I suspect it's the same for the whole lot probably.

What's your purpose? Is your goal 1 hole at 1000 yards? Or are you shooting PRS/NRL/CD matches? If the latter, neck turning is a waste of time.

 

[Birddog6424]

Anyone neck turning the Hornady brass? I received 400x pieces yesterday, pulled 20pcs to sample, ran a mandrel to uniform necks, and one side the neck is 0.0125, the other 0.0135 this was consistent on all 20 cases I measured, I suspect it's the same for the whole lot probably.

You won't see any accuracy difference between turned and unturned necks. Its one of those things that makes people feel good about their reloading practices, but it won't accomplish anything.

 

[verdugo60]

This is with virgin Hornady brass with nothing done to it. Just loaded and shot, no mandrel even.

The group in top right was with brass I had pulled all the bullets from on an old load, just stuffed the bullets back in without even re-doing neck tension.

As has been said, neck turning the GT is a waste, spend more time shooting and less at the bench.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Anyone neck turning the Hornady brass? I received 400x pieces yesterday, pulled 20pcs to sample, ran a mandrel to uniform necks, and one side the neck is 0.0125, the other 0.0135 this was consistent on all 20 cases I measured, I suspect it's the same for the whole lot probably.

I have. You can decrease your ES a bit. But for prs type stuff, your ES will already be well inside the targets we shoot.

 

[FOHA1]

OK after finding a load that gave good SD and ES, I measured my CBTO length and started with the shortest of the five I measured (2.0175), loaded up 5 rounds with that seating depth, and then did four more batches of 5 at; 2.0145, 2.0115, 2.0085 and 2.0055. 2.01145 was the best with minimal vertical stringing (one called flyer). So that's going to be my load.

GAP brass
CCI450
34.9g RL16
109g Berger LR Hybrid Target
2.0145" CBTO
2929fps @70*
SD 4.8
ES 13

 

[mr.quick]

My 6gt matchmaster dies from GAP never came with a bushing, like the description said. Hopefully it was just a mistake.

i just got mine and it did come with the bushing , it has to be a mistake.

 

[Hutch_WV]

Glad this thread was sticky. Got a 6gt barreled action being spun now by @strait jacket armory should be done soon. Glad to find some reloading data.

 

[xocyrusx]

Lookin to switch things up a bit... given the drought on Berger 105s and 109s has anyone had luck with H4350 and Barnes match burner 112s?

 

[drwood96]

Lookin to switch things up a bit... given the drought on Berger 105s and 109s has anyone had luck with H4350 and Barnes match burner 112s?

112 and H4350 combo is GTG. Start around 34grn and but your high node will be around 35-35.5.

 

[xocyrusx]

112 and H4350 combo is GTG. Start around 34grn and but your high node will be around 35-35.5.

Thanks... what speed do you get at 35? My 105s w/ 36.5 is 2900. That’s got to be around 2800?

 

[drwood96]

Thanks... what speed do you get at 35? My 105s w/ 36.5 is 2900. That’s got to be around 2800?

Yes, should be in the 2800. I’m still running the OG Alpha brass so I’m not running it hard. Might be able to hit 2900 with Hornady or OCW Alpha.

 

[IndianaRem5r]

Berger 109 Hybrid
37.3 H4350
0.025 jump
CCI 450
Alpha OCD Brass
2932 fps from Bartlein 26" bbl 1:7" Twist - Barrel only has 120 rounds through it.

 

[NiteQwill]

Wanted to work a load up for The Guardian.

Used the ATS Tuner behind a APA Little Bastard Gen3

34.65 gr Varget
Berger 109 LRHT
Alpha OCD
CCI 450
0.020 jump
2924 fps at 54*F

Dots are 3/4" Avery Dots

This is 60 total rounds (of course the LabRadar skipped 6 of them...)

ATS Tuner (12 was starting point - went all the way around - settled between 20-22)

10 round groups

 

[FOHA1]

My barrel (25" Benchmark) sped up considerably after 100 rounds.

 

[HonkyTonk86]

Picked up a used hawk hill 7.5 twist and multiple fired brass this was my starting load...

109 berger
0.050” jump
GAP brass
CCI 400
34gr Varget

5 shot group with a called flyer
I think I’m done
seems a touch slow compared to similar recipes could just be CCI 400 vs 450?

this is my first 6mm and ease of load development alone is worth the switch

 

[mr.quick]

Picked up a used hawk hill 7.5 twist and multiple fired brass this was my starting load...

109 berger
0.050” jump
GAP brass
CCI 400
34gr Varget

5 shot group with a called flyer
I think I’m done
seems a touch slow compared to similar recipes could just be CCI 400 vs 450?

this is my first 6mm and ease of load development alone is worth the switch

IMHO your speed is more than fine, and i wouldn't worry about the primers . I would take that any time , also remember the hotter the faster your barrel finishes.

 

[HonkyTonk86]

IMHO your speed is more than fine, and i wouldn't worry about the primers . I would take that any time , also remember the hotter the faster your barrel finishes.

Ya I’m not worried about speed at all. Thought about maybe trying to find next lower node even. For my budget I’d really like to extend barrel life as much as possible

 

[mr.quick]

Ya I’m not worried about speed at all. Thought about maybe trying to find next lower node even. For my budget I’d really like to extend barrel life as much as possible

if i am not mistaken , I think I have read that the pros have even lowered their speeds to like the 2800 fps, but PLEASE don't quote me on this. I might be wrong.

 

[xocyrusx]

Anyone have some luck with Barnes 112 match burners?

Edit: Specifically H4350

 

[xocyrusx]

I tested em today with 36.3gr Rl16. 10k-30k off lands in 5k steps. 10k was 3/4" 15k was 1/2, 20k was dang near one hole. So I decided to shoot 25 and 30k off at 400y, they were both bout 1.25" for 5 shots. The whole string of 25 rounds had an es of 22 with new Hornady brass and cci450 primers.

That’s good to know thank you! So your thinking jump wise in the 20 to 30 range?

 

[mr.quick]

Yup, I loaded some more this am to go an verify at 400y again, the longest I have at my local range. The Hornady gt brass has been very erratic. I chamfer/debur all 400pcs, ran necks through 242 mandrel. I'm getting very inconsistent nk tension, so easy seating, some tight as hell, have to dial an extra 8k on my seater to match the light seatings. To get it consistent, I had to anneal all brass with my amp, and run the mandrel once again. Hopefully once everything is fired, annealed and sized these problems go away. It shoots well regardless with pretty decent es/sd.

what are you using to seat your bullets, which die?

 

[mr.quick]

Yup, I loaded some more this am to go an verify at 400y again, the longest I have at my local range. The Hornady gt brass has been very erratic. I chamfer/debur all 400pcs, ran necks through 242 mandrel. I'm getting very inconsistent nk tension, so easy seating, some tight as hell, have to dial an extra 8k on my seater to match the light seatings. To get it consistent, I had to anneal all brass with my amp, and run the mandrel once again. Hopefully once everything is fired, annealed and sized these problems go away. It shoots well regardless with pretty decent es/sd.

I would have this issue as well, what i did is pay close attention how I prep my brass, to the T. I also lube inside the neck,

 

[mr.quick]

I would think that friction and tension is the same thing

 

[mr.quick]

Our wives would argue the opposite

you think they would rather have both or just one, and if one which one would it be?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I would think that friction and tension is the same thing

It is not.

Take two brand new cases that grip a pin gauge the same. Then lube the inside of one and not the other. You’ll see a huge difference in the seating force if you use a press with a gauge.

Seating force/pressure gauges measure the force needed. But the reason for the force needed isn’t a single thing.

 

[mr.quick]

It is not.

Take two brand new cases that grip a pin gauge the same. Then lube the inside of one and not the other. You’ll see a huge difference in the seating force if you use a press with a gauge.

Seating force/pressure gauges measure the force needed. But the reason for the force needed isn’t a single thing.

well this is the way I press 100% of the time , that is why I said I lube the inside

 

[Dthomas3523]

well this is the way I press 100% of the time , that is why I said I lube the inside

That still doesn’t isolate it to a single thing.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I guess it's prob a first time firing thing as the necks have zero carbon in them to naturally lube the bullet seating. I trumble in corn media vs ss pin wet tumbling so I always have some carbon in my necks.

I had an es of 22 on 25 rounds fired on virgin brass with just a mandrel run though it, that's pretty good. There were 5 rounds in there that seated hard, these were on the low end of vo spread.

Perhaps I should be dry lubing necks first firing to keep the friction consistent. Because I know the neck tension is consistent, as the neck ID was set with the mandrel. However inconsistent annealing in the mfg process would change the amount of spring back, causing inconsistent tension. The neck thickness on the Hornady is 1 thou thicker on one side than the other, every single piece I measured, I wasn't too happy about that. However I'm not gonna neck turn prs brass in a gun that's shot several groups in the 2s and 3s @ 400y. Obviously uniform neck thickness is only something truly required for the most absolute of precision.

So far, no one has been able to provide long term data that shows friction has any negative effect when it’s the cause for high seating pressure.

However, I try to alleviate it as I can see the galling on the bullet jacket when I pull a hard seated bullet. Is that enough to mess with the flight/bc? I don’t know, but it’s an easy thing to avoid, so I do it.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

I’d be pretty surprised if barrels don’t last at least as long as dasher.

I stopped running it earlier this year due to the alpha brass fiasco. But running it again now with hornady. I should burn out a couple barrels by mar/april.

How many firings are you getting out of Hornady brass at 2950 FPS?

 

[1791PrecisionArmory]

Berger 109gr
3,000fps
Es 7fps
Sd 2.7 fps
26 inch patriot valley barrel

Nice! Button or Cut?

 

[Coltonlrs]

Nice! Button or Cut?

Button barrel is from patriot valley arms

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Button barrel is from patriot valley arms

Probably a Rock Creek barrel then.

 

[LikeADirtBoss]

GAP has 4-5 sets of Redding GT dies in stock and not up on their website yet. They have been waiting for a long time on these.
J

 

[TRPrecision]

Shooting a match this weekend and just jot the barrel done last week. Did not have time for a break in and full load work up so just tool a SWAG and ended up good enough for now.

26" Krieger MTU 1/7
new Hornady brass
WSR primers
Berger 105 VLD target .010" off
34g Varget
.002" neck tension
2963fps avg, sd12
shot right at .4 moa

Also tried 112 Barnes match burners .030" off over 33.5g Varget. Was a little slow and only got .75 moa. Will revisit the Match Burners when I have some spare time to do some load development.