-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Karma Shooter, Looking at our Body Position
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
This does not work for everyone. Facial structure and neck length differences guarantee it.
That's very understandable. Just sharing my findings and what fixed my flaws.
Ok, but tread lightly, no-one has had the nerve to make fun of my sexy shooting gloves so im impressed with your bravery and will honor your challenge. My only guideline/rule moving forward to our arena is dont attack my lucky shooting underwear (and yea the bells are for grizzly bear deterrence not anything weird).Let’s argue about those shooting gloves
It took me a bit to figure this out on one rifle I seemed to have problems with. Traditional non adjustable stock, rings were to low and I was mashing my head onto the stock, causing vertical jump-dry firing diagnosed it. I didn't realize I was doing it live fire. I actually have a couple bolts with "AR15"mounts on them. The lateral adjustments on cheekpieces help with fitment also.
At what recoil level do you go back to lower scopes? I can't imagine a 2" mount on anything nasty living a long life.....so is this just at the "I can spot my own impacts" level or are you going all in because this is the newest best practice?
Till someone breaks it off in side her
...then it matters.
Scopes keep getting heavier and cartridges bigger. At some point there's a yield.
HI Frank - healthy and happy new year to you and Laura.
Wrt to "jowl weld" I'm with you 100%. I was just responding to another member's post above that "traditional cheek weld...(sic)...almost doesn’t really apply anymore".
As you are well aware, I'm no expert and perhaps a mount lower on the face works for that person and many others...I got no problem with that nor any real opinion on it.
But, I don't think that's the way I should go. And I'm not talking about mashing my cheek on the comb as I would do in high gun American skeet, for example. But resting my cheek bone on the comb does give me a very reproducible and consistent contact point.
I remember at one of the first Mifflin clinics, Marc calling out to me "don't raise your head" when I lifted my head in the middle of shooting a group to be able to hear him better. His point was that, even with a cheek weld, I will never get my face in the EXACT same position if I lift my head and that this will impact POI. I've never forgotten that lesson. So, consistent and maintained mount is one of my mantras.
And yes, Vision comb (and many others) can go higher than my JAE...but again, I'm not sure my old ass neck and fused lumbar can (
) so for now I'm ok with 1.42" rings.Take care, hope to see you sometime in 2025. Hey, if I make it to OH again this year, do I get Diamond status in your Frequent Clinic Shooter program? hahaha
Cheers
Last edited:
Thanks for that video. Scope height is something I have been struggling with since I purchased an AT-X. I have the tall M-brace mount and even tried a 30moa rail, but still notice I’m dipping in the bag and having to adjust after each shot as Chris referred to. For sure I can feel that my big head is to heavy on the butt stock, but that for me is the only way I can see through my scope. Will be looking into a riser(s), and looking forward to see what you guys come up with. Kinda a simple solution and feel stupid I didn’t consider it before, especially since I’ve done it on my AR’s before.
Here's the question being discussed earlier in the thread...
IMHO its not clear if the rifle barrel needs to be elevated rather than rings being put on a spacer...
Pic shows simple re-positioning of the barrel/action in (relative to the back end of) the chassis.
Glass is in the same place as the OP, to get the correct result OP intended for ergonomics...etc
ETA - note zero change in cheek position, head position, etc.
and there no issues with bolt clearance
Pic to save 1000 words.
IMHO its not clear if the rifle barrel needs to be elevated rather than rings being put on a spacer...
Pic shows simple re-positioning of the barrel/action in (relative to the back end of) the chassis.
Glass is in the same place as the OP, to get the correct result OP intended for ergonomics...etc
ETA - note zero change in cheek position, head position, etc.
and there no issues with bolt clearance
Pic to save 1000 words.
Last edited:
If the high rise mount on carbine optics was such a game changer, every single top competive shooter in the action shooting world would be using it. However, I don't see Dan Horner, Nate Staskiewicz, etc using anything similar to high rise Hydra mount or similar.
I feel somewhat certain that raising the axis of recoil (raising action/barrel) above (or further above) the center-line of the chassis will be at all helpful to recoil control. Seems like it would contribute to muzzle jump.
Cheers
Let’s explore the center of gravity concern. It’s very easy to pick a point and scoff at the rest, but I do think that ultimately you can add up the variables that are most important and figure out what the best option for you will be.
However I need to better understand the argument for center of gravity because if the rifles doing what it’s supposed to it doesn’t make sense to me at the moment that it would truly matter compared to shooter form and function, but I’m happy to be wrong.
On a braked 6br that weighs 16 pounds, I don't think C/G has enough influence to make any difference and honestly should only help keep the muzzle down.
If you had a #10 338 to hunt with and a brake that brought you around 30-06 recoil.....I think it could become a point of failure.
It's a different tool for a different application....but keep that in mind before you go buy 27 sets of rings.
If you had a #10 338 to hunt with and a brake that brought you around 30-06 recoil.....I think it could become a point of failure.
It's a different tool for a different application....but keep that in mind before you go buy 27 sets of rings.
If you watch the video Chris talk about :
1. He has bolts in his neck and has had several neck and back surgeries
2. The angle changes in the head to a more natural or neutral position
3. The recoil pulse and how muzzle rise was removed from his sight picture.
But you have to watch vs guess, as note he has been shooting this for several months
1. He has bolts in his neck and has had several neck and back surgeries
2. The angle changes in the head to a more natural or neutral position
3. The recoil pulse and how muzzle rise was removed from his sight picture.
But you have to watch vs guess, as note he has been shooting this for several months
I think the real topic here is where people anchor their heads from. I see lots of jaws being used with the tall scope setups, similar to classic scoped hunting rifles that didn't have cheek risers. Lots of those classic hunting stocks had a cheek rest height designed for anchoring off your cheekbone shooting iron sights and people kept using the stock shape when scopes got more common.
Personally I learned how to shoot as a kid on guns like this so I think it feels fine but when I moved to bigger scopes that were ffp and had smaller eye boxes I switched to cheek risers and anchoring off my cheekbone. I am more consistent getting behind my scope when anchoring off my cheekbone and I can spot hits better that way because my head is faster to be in the right spot with a more solid reference.
You won't see me buying 6 sets of tall 34mm rings because someone else likes it. I've had several ar15's with mounts that were taller and my groups shrank when I switched to rings that barely let the bell clear the handguard. A great shooters can adapt to a lot of goofy setups with enough rounds to practice, maybe I just don't have enough ammo budget to get used to it
Personally I learned how to shoot as a kid on guns like this so I think it feels fine but when I moved to bigger scopes that were ffp and had smaller eye boxes I switched to cheek risers and anchoring off my cheekbone. I am more consistent getting behind my scope when anchoring off my cheekbone and I can spot hits better that way because my head is faster to be in the right spot with a more solid reference.
You won't see me buying 6 sets of tall 34mm rings because someone else likes it. I've had several ar15's with mounts that were taller and my groups shrank when I switched to rings that barely let the bell clear the handguard. A great shooters can adapt to a lot of goofy setups with enough rounds to practice, maybe I just don't have enough ammo budget to get used to it
Revised pic of a modified chassis vs a modified optic mount. This 100% the same ergonomic position the OP had identified at optimal. The only difference here is the mechanical support for the barrel'd action has been revised. As you can see from the picture (by omission), the only ergonomic modification is the hand position, not the head vs optic, shoulder-pocket vs rifle stock.
I get Frank's point about head being being in a more natural position...but, that's sort of if you raise your scope that high, AND then raise your bipod/comb, that this will move a lot of the "arching up" to your lumbar versus your neck and have your head/neck in a more relaxed position.
This presupposes that a person can arch their lumbar sufficiently and I'm not at all sure I can...I don't have bolts in my neck but I sure to have a lot of metal in my lumbar.
Right now, I'm fine with 1.42" ARC rings...perhaps in the future I'll try to add a riser and give this a try. Ya never know until you try it.
Cheers
No Steve,
We are showing you are already compressed putting 5-7” of head and shoulder into less than 4” of space… you are already bigger than the space. What we are saying is this aligns to the actual measurement of your body.
Today you move your head and shoulders to squeeze into the Sight Height, the body angle is adjusted up with a bipod like you see in class to help relieve some discomfort from this action.
Raising the mount fixes the angle and compression so you head stays natural and doesn’t compress into the sight height
It’s not adding an issue it’s removing the issue we already have by relaxing the head and shoulders
We are showing you are already compressed putting 5-7” of head and shoulder into less than 4” of space… you are already bigger than the space. What we are saying is this aligns to the actual measurement of your body.
Today you move your head and shoulders to squeeze into the Sight Height, the body angle is adjusted up with a bipod like you see in class to help relieve some discomfort from this action.
Raising the mount fixes the angle and compression so you head stays natural and doesn’t compress into the sight height
It’s not adding an issue it’s removing the issue we already have by relaxing the head and shoulders
lol...ok, I'm wrong again. haha But this is why I attend to clinics and you teach clinics!
But, in fact I actually still don't really understand. Take this picture again...yeah, my old ass at Mifflin.
So, if the rifle stays exactly where its at...and no higher...then wouldn't my torso stay at the same angle to vertical (which I think you touched on in your post to me) to meet the butt pad, etc?
And, therefore, if all we do is raise the scope height over bore (and adjust the comb height commensurately), then does not all the additional eye height needed to get back into the scope have to come from arching your neck further back?
haha..yes, I rode the short bus to school...have pity on me. lol
But, I was just offered a Leupold AR Riser...a gift from another member...so, I'll give it try and prove to myself that once again I'm wrong...as usual.
Take care, Frank. Thanks for the replies.
Last edited:
Steve do you have a picture like that from the other side ? I want to highlight something I see.
The difference in the position for you to understand is your eyes
That position above your eyes look high, they are looking up into your scope. Changing this angle like I am saying will straighten your eyes to be forward and not up
I had a different picture but can’t fine it, but look at his eyes what we are seeing,
Guys are lower, they look up into the sight picture bs straight into it
The difference in the position for you to understand is your eyes
That position above your eyes look high, they are looking up into your scope. Changing this angle like I am saying will straighten your eyes to be forward and not up
I had a different picture but can’t fine it, but look at his eyes what we are seeing,
Guys are lower, they look up into the sight picture bs straight into it
Your left hand should be on your chin, supporting your old ass head, instead of controlling the bag.
No Frank...wish I did. Marc took that pic but its all I have. I should make a point of having a friend like @GBMaryland take some more shots of me in position. Would be very helpful.
That is absolutely true. I do look up to a fair degree and not straight out in front...at least from prone.
Oh yes, I get that part. If I raise the scope height (and comb) then my face will be more vertical and my eyes will looking more straight out and not up at my eye brows.
But if I don't raise the angle my torso with a higher bipod/rear bag, then the only way I can see to get my face more vertical is to roll my head back on my neck. Now, I might actually be able to do that...dunno until I try it.
And I'm not trying to be argumentative....just trying to understand. And as I said, in a week I'll have an Leupold AR Riser and I'll give it a try. I'm sure actually trying it will clarify all of this for me.
Experience....you can't buy it but you will pay for it.
- Wheeler Johnson
I think you have to do it vs see it
I said to Chris, but prone… and I was surprised how comfortable and it wasn’t a stretch by any means. We’ll do more my risers just showed up
I said to Chris, but prone… and I was surprised how comfortable and it wasn’t a stretch by any means. We’ll do more my risers just showed up
Another great example of what frank and Chris are trying to show is look at how the stocks and combs were made on old muskets. You look at how they shot muskets and their head is in a more natural position looking straight ahead allowing the eyes to be in a neutral position. No neck strain and no eye strain was the key. Our forefathers were on to something. I could be totally wrong though.
Good point.
How much are the higher scope rings an answer to less heel drop on modern chassis rifles?
Check out the heel drop on the 1917 rifle below.
So we lessen heel drop to make the rifle recoil more in line but then compensate for neck discomfort and lack of a centered eye with higher scope rings.
Interesting.
-Stan
Last edited:
It's almost impossible to find an example of a shooter using these in prone.
One of these things is not like the other.
It would be a good case study right here to see where the torso is. On a sex pillow or just a berm?
Interesting discussions about heel drop here:
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/excessive-heel-drop.35795/post-336295
-Sfan
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/excessive-heel-drop.35795/post-336295
-Sfan
Just for clarity, if you use your left hand to support your chin and your right hand to squeeze the bang lever, what is controlling the rear of the rifle?
I can see a need for 2 new pieces of gamer gear...the Armageddon Gear Sex Pillow ($495.00) and the Midwest Industries Chin Crutch ($295.00)...to free up the off hand to again be used to control the butt.
I can see a need for 2 new pieces of gamer gear...the Armageddon Gear Sex Pillow ($495.00) and the Midwest Industries Chin Crutch ($295.00)...to free up the off hand to again be used to control the butt.
The above prices are accurate
It’s the funny part of the picture, his hand on his chin. At first I was like WTF, then I realized, he was talking about my head in your hands height example. So he was trying show the little kid position.
Laying on the floor chin in hands, that’s the height and head position. If you think about it we never teach kids to lay on the floor and watch something. They can do it for hours, we all did it. That’s the position, now slide the rifle into there without moving your position, that should be the goal.
It’s the funny part of the picture, his hand on his chin. At first I was like WTF, then I realized, he was talking about my head in your hands height example. So he was trying show the little kid position.
Laying on the floor chin in hands, that’s the height and head position. If you think about it we never teach kids to lay on the floor and watch something. They can do it for hours, we all did it. That’s the position, now slide the rifle into there without moving your position, that should be the goal.
Similar threads
Rifle Competition Events
Competition Dynamics Burris Optics Team Challenge AAR
