Karma Shooter, Looking at our Body Position

[Baron23]

View attachment 8588596

Here is prone, the house sucks I wanted a better image, I might need a slight tweak but I’m not laying in the snow for this

lol...me either.

Is it an artifact of the pic or did you have to crank your head back a bit further in the prone than in the the earlier pic, above?

I'm not arguing that this approach is inherently flawed...not at all. And, we seem to agree that I (and others) just need to pop that riser on a rifle to really understand and see how it works.

And in reference to the last couple of posts above about if you were declaring this to be the one way to go....I think its been pretty clear to most that this is just an exercise in exploring new ideas and to not be advocating things just because "that's how its always been done". Being analytical and thinking outside of the box appears to be one of the great things Chris seems to bring to the table. He doesn't seem to be locked into any particular orthodoxy and he almost always has data to back up what he says. If nothing else, you two got a bunch of us thinking about scope above bore height (and you're having a beneficial impact on AR riser sales! haha). And if it doesn't suit, we can drop back down to whatever height did work.

Oh...and hey, Frank...I just found where your hair went...it migrated to your jaw! haha

 

[PB&J.]

@Lowlight are you raising your buttpad as well as the cheekpiece?

It looks like by raising the optic height it is also effectively lowering the bore height in relation to how you shoulder the rifle, making the rifle recoil in a straighter path (less muzzle rise)?

 

[Modoc]

Damn it Frank! You got me out to looking at my scoped rifles and I may need to invest in a chamber pot full of higher rings! Even offhand with using that method, my eye is right at the top of the ocular bell. This migh help my Dad return to shooting after mis multiple back surgeries.

BTW does anyone have a source for Leupold High or Extra High gen 1 QD Rings?

 

[Lowlight]

@Lowlight are you raising your buttpad as well as the cheekpiece?

It looks like by raising the optic height it is also effectively lowering the bore height in relation to how you shoulder the rifle, making the rifle recoil in a straighter path (less muzzle rise)?

I raise the butt pad as a matter of routine, any rifle shot in the prone has a higher pad

If you look every rifle with the ability to raise is raised,

 

[LuckyLuke80]

So, @Lowlight mentioned the military guys would likely be first to switch due to head gear etc. and that is exactly what has happened already. Lots of them have gone to ultra high risers with optics. It does provide for a more heads up ability especially since so much of what they do is on the move and shooting while standing. I don’t know if they care at all for prone unless it’s a sniper on a rooftop. I had switched to a riser on a carbine with a red dot and found it pretty good for what I was doing. The main issue is the stupid internet and the YouTube operators trying to “look like the cool kids” with their tall risers. As I said, I tried it on a carbine and liked it. I’m willing to try it on my bolt gun and see how I like it. My low back is jacked up from doing concrete and bench presses, but bending backwards is actually what it needs since I’ve spent too many years bent forward. Also, at my level of shooting ability the only thing that will help me more would be getting to one of Frank’s classes, and hopefully if I can do that I’ll already be rocking a riser.

 

[Baron23]

@Lowlight

Hi Frank - Well, I gave it my best shot...and failed. lol

First, you had asked earlier if I had a pic of me prone on the gun but from the right side. Well, here is me with 1.42" ARC rings that I currently run. I adjusted the bipod as I normally do for prone for targets at the same level (Atlas CAL with legs on the second notch up). I built a bridge, put a bag under the butt, and this is what I look like (except I do float my thumb and my finger is more perpendicular to the trigger shoe...I just wasn't worried about that for these pics).

Then I put the Leupold AR Riser on the gun. the riser is .6" so that brought the scope up to 2". but even in the Vision I could not get the comb high enough to get me in the exit pupil. Short maybe a 1/4"? The JAE wouldn't have even been close.

Now, I do want to emphasize that this is ME and my facial structure...may not have anything to do with anybody else. And I do know with the MDT ACC you can get from them a set of the LOP posts (they are the same as comb posts...just longer) and use them on the adjustable comb. It won't be able to go down all the way as the posts will bottom out on the lower part of the butt stock, but we are trying to go up, not down, right?

This is the rifle with the riser on it. And yes, I know that the riser should go on the other way but there is a sort of large lug at one end and I couldn't get eye relief except this way.

The 2" may work well for others...and it may work well for me if I could get the comb high enough (eh, like put a pad on the comb for a bit of added height). Dunno, couldn't get there. But I did confirm that with the 1.42" ARC rings and in prone, this is about as far as I can flex my neck and lumbar and still be somewhat comfortable.

ALL - @LuckyLuke80‘d for the riser first so it’s his. Thanks guys

this riser was given to me by @stanley_white (who is a GREAT guy, by the by). He gave me permission to pass it on to somebody else if it doesn't work for me...and it doesn't. If you want it and are willing to send me $15, I'll mail it to you in a small priority mail flat rate box. The riser is free (and they are $79 from Leupold plus shipping and tax). If you want to give it a try, PM me. First come, first served. Its actually a very nicely made piece.

Cheers

 

[Nik H]

I got my riser today but didn’t have anytime to play. I will install it tomorrow and let you know how I make out.

 

[Baron23]

I got my riser today but didn’t have anytime to play. I will install it tomorrow and let you know how I make out.

We want pictures, Nik! Lots of pictures...cause they are a PIA to take by yourself and I want others to suffer as I did!

 

[Jscb1b]

@Lowlight

Hi Frank - Well, I gave it my best shot...and failed. lol

First, you had asked earlier if I had a pic of me prone on the gun but from the right side. Well, here is me with 1.42" ARC rings that I currently run. I adjusted the bipod as I normally do for prone for targets at the same level (Atlas CAL with legs on the second notch up). I built a bridge, put a bag under the butt, and this is what I look like (except I do float my thumb and my finger is more perpendicular to the trigger shoe...I just wasn't worried about that for these pics).

View attachment 8591476

Then I put the Leupold AR Riser on the gun. the riser is .6" so that brought the scope up to 2". but even in the Vision I could not get the comb high enough to get me in the exit pupil. Short maybe a 1/4"? The JAE wouldn't have even been close.

Now, I do want to emphasize that this is ME and my facial structure...may not have anything to do with anybody else. And I do know with the MDT ACC you can get from them a set of the longer LOP posts (they are the same just longer) and use them on the adjustable comb. It won't be able to go down all the way as the posts will bottom out on the lower part of the butt stock, but we are trying to go up, not down, right?

This is the rifle with the riser on it. And yes, I know that the riser should go on the other way but there is a sort of large lug at one end and I couldn't get eye relief except this way.
View attachment 8591485

The 2" may work well for others...and it may work well for me if I could get the comb high enough (eh, like put a pad on the comb for a bit of added height). Dunno, couldn't get there. But I did confirm that with the 1.42" ARC rings and in prone, this is about as far as I can flex my neck and lumbar and still be somewhat comfortable.

ALL - this riser was given to me by @stanley_white (who is a GREAT guy, by the by). He gave me permission to pass it on to somebody else if it doesn't work for me...and it doesn't. If you want it and are willing to send me $15, I'll mail it to you in a small priority mail flat rate box. The riser is free (and they are $79 from Leupold plus shipping and tax). If you want to give it a try, PM me. First come, first served. Its actually a very nicely made piece.
View attachment 8591506
View attachment 8591515

Cheers

Pmed.

 

[Lowlight]

A 1/4” put a touch of foam on it

I honestly think Steve you’re an edge guy, even on a normal day you’re an extra five minutes no offense.

But in your defense the vision is probably short, height wise, but maybe not. Some are short.

But that said, added a 1/4” to try it better should be easy.

 

[Ghost29]

@Lowlight

Hi Frank, I was wondering if you saw any changes to the drop data on your Kestrel?

I changed my bore height on my Kestrel from 2.5” to 3.5” and my 200y data changed from .4 to .24. I was able to true my drop from 300 to 800 but I couldn’t get my 200y drop to line up.

 

[Lowlight]

I have to dope to see, but I haven’t looked at the data Chris has I just did my rifle

Cheek vs the rest with a Vision

One is mushed more than the other but I can do it with a cheek if I go too high I lose the 1/4” but it’s super high.

 

[Lowlight]

I’m super comfy prone and it move me a touch lower body wise

Prone does require an adjustment to the system to fit? You can’t just throw on the riser and call it good. The set up does change

 

[ma smith]

Frank, this would be a great video tutorial.

To see you in the 360˚ setup in both prone and off a tripod, etc.

 

[Nik H]

@Lowlight

I think you and Chris have a winner. I haven't tried it prone yet. From a tripod, it is better. My eye is perfectly centered in the eyepiece. There is no shadowing, and my head is more upright. I don't have to add any pressure to the cheek weld. I can't wait to try it prone.

I am using a Badger 1.54" mount with a Bobro riser that adds another 0.625" for a total of 2.16". A tenth of an inch lower would be better but this will do.

Thanks again!!!

 

[Lowlight]

I personally think the 2.0 will be a winning for a lot of people once we determine the details to set it up

 

[Nik H]

I personally think the 2.0 will be a winning for a lot of people once we determine the details to set it up

Reptilia has a 2" mount. I may have to try that once I check out this setup in a prone position.

 

[lash]

This has been a great read for me. Being a glasses wearer all my like and trifocals for the past ten+, I have been telling people in my situation that the answer is a more straight on/level look through the optic versus trying to view the optic through the top 15% of your glasses prescription. This means that yes, you need a more raised body position and adjusted cheek weld.

Good to see a professional look at it as an approach.

 

[Lowlight]

Frank, this would be a great video tutorial.

To see you in the 360˚ setup in both prone and off a tripod, etc.

We are gonna do that with Lives as well Hide TV can go live with no firearm restrictions

 

[Lowlight]

I got out to zero the unity fast mount, zeroed really day, it was on the paper 1st shot so no issues.

We adjusted the rifle 3x including one final time after the video. So it was good in the video, it got better after the last adjustment. I brought the LOP in, one of the weights, so 1/2” and then we dropped the cheek 1/4”. That seem to result in more of an index on the rifle and not being anchored to it. The sight picture in my opinion improves noticeably and with the Index style over the Anchor it’s a full picture immediately, even on 30x. Which every shot in the video is on 30x…

Why 30x, I shot, went to spot for my first shot, zoomed in, and just stayed there. I could see the bullet hit the paper and I was on 30x. If you told me that. I would have not believed it. Ya I can see steel getting hits but the bullet at 100, it’d be tough even with a mouse gun. So again the recoil pulse is so different, it really comes down to just setting up the rifle right.

More to do, and at distance, but. I am zeroed up and ready to try it.

 

[EbTac]

DI

I got out to zero the unity fast mount, zeroed really day, it was on the paper 1st shot so no issues.

We adjusted the rifle 3x including one final time after the video. So it was good in the video, it got better after the last adjustment. I brought the LOP in, one of the weights, so 1/2” and then we dropped the cheek 1/4”. That seem to result in more of an index on the rifle and not being anchored to it. The sight picture in my opinion improves noticeably and with the Index style over the Anchor it’s a full picture immediately, even on 30x. Which every shot in the video is on 30x…

Why 30x, I shot, went to spot for my first shot, zoomed in, and just stayed there. I could see the bullet hit the paper and I was on 30x. If you told me that. I would have not believed it. Ya I can see steel getting hits but the bullet at 100, it’d be tough even with a mouse gun. So again the recoil pulse is so different, it really comes down to just setting up the rifle right.

More to do, and at distance, but. I am zeroed up and ready to try it.

Did you notice if you saw less mirage coming off the barrel?

 

[jabonra]

I just read this article and while it's about skeet a lot of the elements match up to the points here and also tie in some of the concerns other members have brought up like face dimensions and stock width, worth a read

Fitting the Gun Stock Optically - Decot Hy-Wyd Sport Glasses, Inc.

Interview by Nick Sisley During the 1982 World Skeet Championships held in Savannah, Georgia, I took advantage of Bud Decot’s presence-or at least tried to. With 33 years in the sport glass business, mainly providing glasses for trap and skeet shooters, Decot has a tremendous amount of knowledge...

www.decot.com