New 6mm Advanced Rifle Cartridge

[db2000]

Man that ES and group size are no bueno.

No doubt. I didn’t record an ES but is easily done here. ES 47. Not great but 100 yd groups were reproducible. This was w/ Magnetospeed V3.

3/21/23
60F 20% 30.34 in

Hornady Black 105 BTHP factory load
2512, 2554, 2559, 2558, 2532,
2556, 2536, 2545, 2547, 2550
SD 13.9
1” 10 shot group
0.78” 5 shot

 

[padom]

Yea the distance to lands on some of these bullets is weird. For example, I'm into the lands with 87 VMAX @ 2.175 COAL... But still have tons of room in my mags and the bullet is still down in the case.

I would say if someone is planning to shoot these 75-90gr bullets a dedicated reamer that optimizes case capacity and maximizes magazine coal would be ideal. Maybe I'm wrong idk....

 

[padom]

Got out yesterday to test the 85 SMK and Im liking it even better than the 87 VMAX. Shot multiple charge weights submoa with best being sub 0.5moa... Also, this barrel has really sped up after 100rd through it... These test was done with 1x brass that was tumbled, sized in a Wilson SS FL bushing die to squeeze down 0.005 under loaded diameter then a 21st Century mandrel to open back up to 0.003 neck tension and tumbled in corn cob.. I then trimmed with Henderson.

I also loaded up my go to 87 VMAX 31.0gr from my previous tests and shot yesterday. That same exact load in now 1x brass that was sized and trimmed, is now 2929 and it was 2875 during initial testing with new brass......so a little over 50fps faster all else being equal..


These 85 SMK's shoot great. Ill definitely be picking up a bunch more.. The SD's crept up to double digits as you went higher in charge weight. Still no pressure all the way up to 31.9gr (2982). Not a mark on the case head and primers still nice and round.

22" RTR 6 ARC
85 SMK
CFE 223 OCW
1x Starline Brass
CCI 450
2.050 COAL

 

[supercorndogs]

I think someone at Horndady is smoking meth! Decided to see what the max charge of 33.6gr of leverevolution looked like in the case and well.... there is no freaking way a 75gr vmax is gonna fit with the powder half way up the neck. The base of the vmax sits almost down to the beginning of the shoulder.
View attachment 8494868
View attachment 8494862


View attachment 8494863
View attachment 8494864



So I poured some out till I got below the neck and came up with 31.7grs which looks like this...
View attachment 8494866
View attachment 8494865


To top it off the recommended COL of 2.095" is jammed into the lands on my gun.

Did you try it with a long drop tube?

 

[Capri_Man]

Did you try it with a long drop tube?

No I didn't, I used the manual powder drop funnel in the dillon 550. I did however tap the case on the bench a few times to see if that would settle/condese the powder. I also tried a once fired unsized hornady case but the result was the same both times.

 

[Mmdutcher]

Sample size of one here with a single 18" Proof Carbon build and roughly 200-300 rounds of experience with this caliber so take this with a grain of salt. So far it has grouped well with factory loaded 108's, 103's grouped just under 1" and the 80's have been all over the place but I did have a group under 1". See pic below for best five-round group with the 108's.

1. I shoot five round groups in roughly one minutes time, so 15-20 seconds between shot. I typically don't shoot more than 5-10 rounds without allowing the barrel to cool down for at least five minutes.
2. I have run a JP bolt in a LMT SA carrier with great results and I have run the full JP FMOS BCG as well. I haven't noticed any changes in performance with the full JP BCG but the round count with it is still sub 100.
3. Some swear by the need for an adjustable gas block but there have been wide selections in gas lengths which definitely creates another variable that can have an impact here. I believe Proof has the gas lengths the most sorted of any manufacturer currently making 6ARC barrels. I am running a non-adjustable SLR Micro on mine and have no issues suppressed.
4. I had the same experience with the 80 VT's specifically without a can but it was simply to test for shift. I think most will shoot the 6ARC suppressed so it's not an issue in my eyes.
5. With my 18" Rifle +1 I have beening a Carbine buffer but I could see moving up to an H1 as I go shorter. Lot's of variables here, just play with your particular setup until you find what works best.

Thanks for your feedback on this. Much appreciated.

 

[Mmdutcher]

So, I have found some Lever powder. I have worked up 4 different loads and plan to hit the range again when I can.

I can’t find anyone with a JP BCG in stock yet, so, I am on a waiting list. Hope to get my hands on one soon.

 

[padom]

So, I have found some Lever powder. I have worked up 4 different loads and plan to hit the range again when I can.

I can’t find anyone with a JP BCG in stock yet, so, I am on a waiting list. Hope to get my hands on one soon.

Get the Rubber City and save some money. They are 100% of equal quality. Those of us that have been in the AR game for a long time know Rubber City and JP are both top of the line.

I actually prefer the HM coating on the Rubber City bcgs.. so slick and cleaning you just wipe off. They also ship lightning fast. Have in a few days.

https://rubbercityarmory.com/blacknitride-process/

https://rubbercityarmory.com/product/6-5mm-grendel-standard-mass-m16-profile-complete/

 

[Capri_Man]

Get the Rubber City and save some money. They are 100% of equal quality. Those of us that have been in the AR game for a long time know Rubber City and JP are both top of the line.

I actually prefer the HM coating on the Rubber City bcgs.. so slick and cleaning you just wipe off. They also ship lightning fast. Have in a few days.

https://rubbercityarmory.com/blacknitride-process/

https://rubbercityarmory.com/product/6-5mm-grendel-standard-mass-m16-profile-complete/

I'll second this! I got a RCA bcg heads spaced to my barrel when I ordered it.

 

[Mmdutcher]

Get the Rubber City and save some money. They are 100% of equal quality. Those of us that have been in the AR game for a long time know Rubber City and JP are both top of the line.

I actually prefer the HM coating on the Rubber City bcgs.. so slick and cleaning you just wipe off. They also ship lightning fast. Have in a few days.

https://rubbercityarmory.com/blacknitride-process/

https://rubbercityarmory.com/product/6-5mm-grendel-standard-mass-m16-profile-complete/

Thanks! Placed an order for one.

 

[db2000]

I’ve got a bunch of various 6mm bullets if you’re interested in trying some to avoid buying all the boxes I did.
All loaded w/ Leverevolution
Sierra 95 TMK
Nosler 95 BT
Berger 95 VLD Hunter
Hornady 103 ELD-X
Berger 108 Elite Hunter
Berger 95 Classic Hunter
Sierra 107 HPBT

Loaded w/ A2230
Hornady 58 VMAX

 

[Mmdutcher]

I went to the range yesterday and had tried out my reloads using Lever. The results were not great. I was all over the place still. I did not receive the new BCG yet, but was hoping that it would have been a little better.

So, today, I received a notice of a recall with 6mm ARC and 22 ARC carbon barrels. After looking into this a little more and then calling and speaking with someone at Proof, I think that I may have found that variable. Apparently, their supplier of the barrel extension had not done something correctly with those extensions. It has affected the hardening and as a result, you might see some chips within the lug of the barrel extension. They told me that many upset people were complaining about accuracy issues and have found that these chipped lugs were contributing to that. Sure enough, I had 2 lugs that were chipped and would have affected the BCG going into battery properly or tight or snug. I have sent in my information for the recall and will be sending my barrel back to Proof for rework. I am hoping that this will fix the issue.

Because, if you will recall, when I got the barrel, I was seeing or did see sub-moa groups in the very beginning. Not any more. Again, I am hoping that this will fix that and get me back to where I want to be. Fingers crossed.

 

[supercorndogs]

My Rainer Ultra match with the soft barrel extention just never wanted to shoot. I bought a cheap Faxon while I was waiting on a resolution with the rainer barrel and xcaliber make a barrel. It shot pretty well and the xcaliber did also right out of the gate. The faxon I still shooting well and holding head space at a little over 200 rounds.

 

[padom]

I just got back from shooting the 30rd of 87vmax at distance. Chrono 2933 while shooting 5 @ 100yd to adjust zero..

I then threw that into the kestrel and dialed 2.4 mil it spit out for 500yd. Smacked center.

I then dialed 632yd 4.0 mil and smacked a 4" swinger over and over. Then dialed 4.4mil for 700yd and banged a small swinger with the last of my rounds.

Stupid easy and no issues out to 700yd with 87 vmax

 

[db2000]

I’m going to load up 75 and 87 VMAX next week. What powder did you go with?
I might try H4895 with the 75’s and CFE223 for 87s. And of course LVR for both.

 

[padom]

I’m going to load up 75 and 87 VMAX next week. What powder did you go with?
I might try H4895 with the 75’s and CFE223 for 87s. And of course LVR for both.

31.0gr cfe223

 

[padom]

I just got a bunch of 108 ELD.... gonna load them up with PP2000MR and see how they do

 

[rlsmith1]

I’m going to load up 75 and 87 VMAX next week. What powder did you go with?
I might try H4895 with the 75’s and CFE223 for 87s. And of course LVR for both.

My 18” proof really liked a max charge of TAC with the 75gr and she’s were good (3k from 18”)

 

[LanceKTM950]

Noveske 12.5" barrel vs. Ranier 12" barrel...interested in the difference in quality, if any, between the two.

 

[357Max]

Noveske 12.5" barrel vs. Ranier 12" barrel...interested in the difference in quality, if any, between the two.

Stay away from any Rainier with the Tin (Gold) extension.

 

[Jdowns0415]

I just got a bunch of 108 ELD.... gonna load them up with PP2000MR and see how they do

did you ever shoot any of the 106gr a tip seconds? if so what was the recipe and how did they do? I loaded mine up with 28.9 (below max charge) of lever and they were going 2680fps out of a 18 inch odin barrel in like a 1.2 MOA grop but this odin barrel has been lackluster thus far.

 

[padom]

did you ever shoot any of the 106gr a tip seconds? if so what was the recipe and how did they do? I loaded mine up with 28.9 (below max charge) of lever and they were going 2680fps out of a 18 inch odin barrel in like a 1.2 MOA grop but this odin barrel has been lackluster thus far.

Lots of them but not in 6 ARC.. They shoot consistent 0.1s in my 6BR Bartlein with 30.2gr Varget.

 

[marc.south1972]

i'm testing out this next gen EC tuner on my Cobalt Kinetics 6 arc

 

[padom]

I loaded up 50rd of the 0.5" 100yd shooting charge of 30.4gr CFE 223 yesterday to test. MANNNNNN is CFE 223 temp sensitive. I did my initial load workup with 1x sized and trimmed brass.... 30.4gr in 92F 85% humidity with 85SMK was 2854...

I sized and trimmed exact same after initial test and loaded up 50rd with the 2x brass, 30.4gr, same seating depth, die was still set from initial test. Same 1lb jug of CFE223, same primers, same everything... 2807fps and it was 72F yesterday. So about 20F cooler yielded 40fps drop. Looking at temp stability charts they say CFE223 is about 1.7degree F change per temp degree. I saw closer to 2 degree F change..

Anyway, I threw the can on after shooting 10rd and re-adjusted zero.. Shot a 5 shot group that was right at 0.5moa and ran out of time. Ill shoot this load suppressed at distance next time and see how it does but it felt great suppressed. Not a mark on the cases...

 

[Jdowns0415]

I loaded up 50rd of the 0.5" 100yd shooting charge of 30.4gr CFE 223 yesterday to test. MANNNNNN is CFE 223 temp sensitive. I did my initial load workup with 1x sized and trimmed brass.... 30.4gr in 92F 85% humidity with 85SMK was 2854...

I sized and trimmed exact same after initial test and loaded up 50rd with the 2x brass, 30.4gr, same seating depth, die was still set from initial test. Same 1lb jug of CFE223, same primers, same everything... 2807fps and it was 72F yesterday. So about 20F cooler yielded 40fps drop. Looking at temp stability charts they say CFE223 is about 1.7degree F change per temp degree. I saw closer to 2 degree F change..

Anyway, I threw the can on after shooting 10rd and re-adjusted zero.. Shot a 5 shot group that was right at 0.5moa and ran out of time. Ill shoot this load suppressed at distance next time and see how it does but it felt great suppressed. Not a mark on the cases...

thats what I found with the lever charges. It was shooting like 150fps faster than stated in the book with a 18 inch barrel but the case heads didnt have any swipes or bulges. with 106 tap, 106 atip, and 105 berger hybrids. the hybrids shot the best out of all of them. What projectiles were you using with the CFE223? I'd like to try that.

 

[padom]

thats what I found with the lever charges. It was shooting like 150fps faster than stated in the book with a 18 inch barrel but the case heads didnt have any swipes or bulges. with 106 tap, 106 atip, and 105 berger hybrids. the hybrids shot the best out of all of them. What projectiles were you using with the CFE223? I'd like to try that.

87 VMAX and 85 SMK

 

[padom]

So a guy on another forum was trying to tell me his 6 ARC 26" bolt gun shoots within 50fps of his buddies 6 BRA and 6 Dasher with the same bullet. Claiming 2850-2900fps with 105-108gr pills...

I dont see any way this is possible and staying within safe pressures... Not to mention we are talking about 5gr H20 difference case capacity....

I started looking through this thread and I see guys loading 105/108 pills in 6 ARC 2850-2900 with charges of 30-31.5gr Lever... Running the numbers in QL for these bullets and powders, these are WAY over SAMMI max pressure of 51996psi.... This may be why we have read so many reports of bolt issues and maybe even the reason why we are hearing about extension issues. Not sure on that one, but seeing the huge difference in factory 108 ammo speed vs what a lot of people are loading got me to thinking and plugging in the numbers..

Example from some loads I read in this thread guys are shooting

31.2gr Lever
95 Berger Classic Hunter
22" Barrel
2900

QL says that load is 60,000psi.. Thats 8000 psi over max...

29.7gr Lever
108 ELD
24" Barrel
2936
QL says that load is 57,363psi.. Thats 5300psi over max...

 

[rlsmith1]

I believe the Hornady load data for bolt guns is rated at 62k psi

 

[Bantam1]

I believe the Hornady load data for bolt guns is rated at 62k psi

The Hornady load data for gas gun with 108-110 for Lever is 29.7 for max charge. 29.1 for CFE. With 103-105 it shows max Lever at 29.5 and 28.6 for CFE.

 

[padom]

I believe the Hornady load data for bolt guns is rated at 62k psi

Agreed, but the info I posted above is AR loads guys are shooting...

Now for a bolt gun, that is true, but unless someone is making a custom 6 ARC bolt gun reamer to get the bullet up out the case, you can only fit so much powder in that case...

 

[padom]

The Hornady load data for gas gun with 108-110 for Lever is 29.7 for max charge. 29.1 for CFE. With 103-105 it shows max Lever at 29.5 and 28.6 for CFE.

Which makes zero sense... Plugging in that exact info off the Hornady reloading data for gas guns 108 ELD with 29.7gr Lever into QL says 58556psi and velocity QL outputs matches Hornady reloading data...

 

[padom]

I have not seen any pressure signs on my cases or primers and I went a full grain above Hornady max for CFE223 and 87 VMAX but QL says Im way over pressure...

 

[Bantam1]

I'm thinking QL is not 100% accurate. It's a great guide, but not exact. I haven't had a chance to load yet for my Arc. I am still shooting factory ammo and just haven't been out much since I built the rifle. I have several 108 ELDM and a handful of 106 Atip to play with. Lever and CFE on hand in 8 pound jugs. My CFE is from one of the first year of production lots so unsure how much it has varied over the years.

 

[rlsmith1]

Agreed, but the info I posted above is AR loads guys are shooting...

Now for a bolt gun, that is true, but unless someone is making a custom 6 ARC bolt gun reamer to get the bullet up out the case, you can only fit so much powder in that case...

Ah, I thought you were calling BS on the guy claiming those velocities from a bolt gun in your original post.

I've stayed away from loading for the 6 ARC as much as possible because if I'm doing that I might as well look at other options too

 

[Cascade Hemi]

So a guy on another forum was trying to tell me his 6 ARC 26" bolt gun shoots within 50fps of his buddies 6 BRA and 6 Dasher with the same bullet. Claiming 2850-2900fps with 105-108gr pills...

I dont see any way this is possible and staying within safe pressures... Not to mention we are talking about 5gr H20 difference case capacity....

I started looking through this thread and I see guys loading 105/108 pills in 6 ARC 2850-2900 with charges of 30-31.5gr Lever... Running the numbers in QL for these bullets and powders, these are WAY over SAMMI max pressure of 51996psi.... This may be why we have read so many reports of bolt issues and maybe even the reason why we are hearing about extension issues. Not sure on that one, but seeing the huge difference in factory 108 ammo speed vs what a lot of people are loading got me to thinking and plugging in the numbers..

Example from some loads I read in this thread guys are shooting

31.2gr Lever
95 Berger Classic Hunter
22" Barrel
2900

QL says that load is 60,000psi.. Thats 8000 psi over max...

29.7gr Lever
108 ELD
24" Barrel
2936
QL says that load is 57,363psi.. Thats 5300psi over max...

I've pointed this out in other threads. There's a ton of denial among the ARC crowd.

 

[supercorndogs]

I don't care what kind if pressure a guy is running. It shouldn't damage the barrel extention like mine in 15 rds and leave the bolt un-effected. Both myself and 357max have our own threads that lay it all out and document it. Both had the same problem with 2 barrels.

On the second rainer um barrel the load i used was something like 15rds of 90tgk going like 2600 with 25g of varget. Some other loads used in the first rainer are the same ones I am shooting in my xcaliber and cmmg 6 arc barrels and head space is not moving.

That said. Ya people shoot over pressure loads. Lots of 6.5 grendel bolts have been broken as well.

 

[padom]

I don't care what kind if pressure a guy is running. It shouldn't damage the barrel extention like mine in 15 rds and leave the bolt un-effected. Both myself and 357max have our own threads that lay it all out and document it. Both had the same problem with 2 barrels.

On the second rainer um barrel the load i used was something like 15rds of 90tgk going like 2600 with 25g of varget. Some other loads used in the first rainer are the same ones I am shooting in my xcaliber and cmmg 6 arc barrels and head space is not moving.

That said. Ya people shoot over pressure loads. Lots of 6.5 grendel bolts have been broken as well.

My post wasn't meant to call anyone out and wasn't referring to anyone or anything specific.

The conversation in another place got me thinking and intrigued me so I plugged in thr numbers.. 2600-2650 factory 108 ammo vs 2900-2950 is a huge difference in speed and pressure is all I'm saying..

QL is not the end all be all and there is an error rate, but has been deemed over the years to be very accurate with good data input.

Like anything, bad data in bad data out.

But no way it's off by 250-300fps and 10,000psi+....

 

[Rob01]

In my 26" bolt gun my 30.1grn load of CFE223 is giving me about 2775fps with 110 ATips. I wouldn't go any higher. Happy with that.

 

[supercorndogs]

That's about what I am getting with 95smk in my 22" ar with mp501. I haven't proofed that load out yet. My others should be good since that brass is 10x fired and pockets are still good.

 

[padom]

In my 26" bolt gun my 30.1grn load of CFE223 is giving me about 2775fps with 110 ATips. I wouldn't go any higher. Happy with that.

That sounds about just right from what my testing and QL numbers look like. I think 2900 is insane

 

[padom]

Ah, I thought you were calling BS on the guy claiming those velocities from a bolt gun in your original post.

I was making 2 points in that post.. I was calling BS that guy stating he shoots 6 ARC same bullet same barrel within 50fps of 6 BRA and 6 Dasher.. The only way thats possible is if he is filling his case up and the BRA and Dasher guys are shooting very weak loads...

The problem with 6 ARC with the heavier bullets in a bolt gun is you have to jam that bullet down in the case to fit in an AR mag which is what the 6 ARC chambers out there are designed for. Only way around that is having a custom 6 ARC bolt gun reamer made with a much longer freebore to get the heavies up out the case to get more case capacity, but then you only have so much room in the little 6 ARC case. At that point, your better off just going with a BR or variant.....

 

[padom]

In my 26" bolt gun my 30.1grn load of CFE223 is giving me about 2775fps with 110 ATips. I wouldn't go any higher. Happy with that.

Rob, what is your COAL with your 110 A-Tip load? Starline brass?

 

[Rob01]

Rob, what is your COAL with your 110 A-Tip load? Starline brass?

2.355" with the 110 ATip at .030" off and in Hornady brass.

 

[padom]

2.355" with the 110 ATip at .030" off and in Hornady brass.

Thx. So plugging that in to QL to gain some more data on my end.. Id say QL is dead on. Hornady states Hornady 6 ARC brass H20 capacity 34.0gr.. Changing COAL to 2.355, 26" barrel, 110 A-Tip, 30.1gr CFE223 spits out muzzle velocity of 2778.. Thats within 3fps of your stated 2775 and chamber pressure of 59,051psi is right below the Hornady stated bolt gun 60,000 psi max. Looks pretty damn perfect!

 

[Rob01]

Thx. So plugging that in to QL to gain some more data on my end.. Id say QL is dead on. Hornady states Hornady 6 ARC brass H20 capacity 34.0gr.. Changing COAL to 2.355, 26" barrel, 110 A-Tip, 30.1gr CFE223 spits out muzzle velocity of 2778.. Thats within 3fps of your stated 2775 and chamber pressure of 59,051psi is right below the Hornady stated bolt gun 60,000 psi max. Looks pretty damn perfect!

That's something I have never had happen! LOL Guess it's that old blind squirrel finding a nut thing. LOL

 

[padom]

That's something I have never had happen! LOL Guess it's that old blind squirrel finding a nut thing. LOL

 

[padom]

For anyone interested, playing around with the propellant suggestions feature in QL for 87 VMAX, 85 SMK and 75 VMAX set to max case fill and 100% propellant burn... AR Comp is top of the list for all 3 of these bullets...

Showing a 95-100% case fill and 99-100% propellant burn rate for all 3 of these bullets and not going over 52,000psi 6 ARC AR15 max pressure. Velocity looks excellent with 27.7gr AR Comp and 87 VMAX @ 2938... 85 SMK @ 2994...

Im going to load up some AR Comp with these 2 bullets and see what kind of results I get. WAY more temp stable than CFE223 and Lever....


75 VMAX

85 SMK

87 VMAX

 

[Cascade Hemi]

For anyone interested, playing around with the propellant suggestions feature in QL for 87 VMAX, 85 SMK and 75 VMAX set to max case fill and 100% propellant burn... AR Comp is top of the list for all 3 of these bullets...

Showing a 95-100% case fill and 99-100% propellant burn rate for all 3 of these bullets and not going over 52,000psi 6 ARC AR15 max pressure. Velocity looks excellent with 27.7gr AR Comp and 87 VMAX @ 2938... 85 SMK @ 2994...

Im going to load up some AR Comp with these 2 bullets and see what kind of results I get. WAY more temp stable than CFE223 and Lever....


75 VMAX

85 SMK

87 VMAX

I ran members loads through QL a while back and they were north of 60k in ARs. I was told QL was wrong despite the velocities being close to BR. Try running the QL numbers for Hornady factory ammo using the posted velocities in this thread next. It's pretty eye opening.

 

[putput30]

I wonder if that guy was running Alpha munitions brass. Wade from ally munitions tested their 6 arc brass to see how hard he could push it before it popped a primer. He ended up at 2913 with a 105 from a 14.5 inch bolt gun. Their brass is no joke, but that's like a 90k psi load right there.

 

[padom]

I wonder if that guy was running Alpha munitions brass. Wade from ally munitions tested their 6 arc brass to see how hard he could push it before it popped a primer. He ended up at 2913 with a 105 from a 14.5 inch bolt gun. Their brass is no joke, but that's like a 90k psi load right there.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make.. good brass is holding up to such a high pressure, guys don't realize how far over pressure they actually are...