Yes, my bad, David...Too many good gunsmiths to choose from in the US!!!
Please accept my apologies.
Allan.
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Please accept my apologies.
Allan.
Sure.
Up until the RimX design was released, your traditional 22LR rifles used extractors with timed extractor grooves cut into the barrel tenon. Also, chambers were cut and headspace was set based off the match ammo you planned to shoot. This is because Eley for example to explain, required less headspace than say Lapua. So if you cut an Lapua based chamber (0.041 - 0.43") and shot Eley for example, you risk the round moving forward under ignition when struck by the firing pin with it being shorter because nothing in a traditional 22LR captured and held the case against the bolt face. In turn, this results in inconsistent ignition which in turn affects accuracy.. This is pretty standard common knowledge stuff for your knowledgeable 22LR smiths.
This is how most of us built custom high end match 22LR up until the RimX dropped. I was one of the first to receive a RimX from Zermatt before its release for testing and review. When Zermatt was explaining to me their new design and how it works and how to cut barrels, it was different than what we all knew and was hard to believe because what we all knew about making a high end accurate 22LR up until this point. When talking with Ray in those early days, he was telling me this action you don't set headspace based off ammo, there is no need and they have a recommended headspace which is much larger than what we all knew for say Eley and Lapua ammo... (Its been a long time since I looked at this data but I believe Zermatt's tenon print calls for a minimum 0.0455 or 0.046" headspace I could be slightly off on these numbers)...
He explained why.. because the RimX, by design, used a tensioner which captures the 22LR round out of the mag and holds it against the bolt face at all times. Because of this, you have consistent ignition on every case because the case cannot move when struck by the firing pin. Because of this, headspace wasn't as important compared to your traditional 22LR's where it was EXTREMELY important.
Once I got the first barrel cut and installed on the test action and got some rounds down it, I realized what Zermatt was saying. In my initial 10 barrel review and testing I produced some unbelievable accuracy numbers and consistency with those numbers. This was unseen in this type of prefit type rifle and not matching headspace to my ammo up until this point. I shot 50rd AGG's @ 50yd in the 0.1's with multiple barrels and multiple different types and lots of ammo! I shot 5rd 50yd groups in the 0.0's, my personal best at that time. I shot 100yd 50rd AGG in the 0.5's and 6x5 30rd AGG's in the 0.3's and 0.4's, another personal best at the time.
Here we are just over 4 years later and I think the RimX performance speaks for itself. I dont know of any other 22LR designed or operating like a RimX which is why I stand by my comments that its a revolutionary design. Barrels can be made cheaper and faster. No more painstaking work of meticulously timing and cutting extractor grooves into barrel tenons so they line up perfectly when the barrel it torqued on and the smith needing the action in hand for extended periods to do all this... No more cutting headspace to match the ammo the shooter plans to use for optimal accuracy. Buy a prefit, screw it on and go shoot with unheard of accuracy and consistency up until the RimX was released. Want another barrel, maybe different length or contour, no problem, keep shooting your current barrel while you wait for the new barrel to arrive. Again, unheard of up until the RimX hit the scene....
With this design, someone can buy a RimX, pick up one of many high end match grade prefit barrels from various sources instantly and be shooting an extremely capable and accurate rifle the next day with various types of high end match grade ammo. The average shooter couldn't do this before, and not without a long wait time on a custom 22LR smith and a lot of money.
Thats my $0.02 on the RimX and I hope that answers your question.
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Thanks for the in depth reply, I figured that was what you were referring to. My knowledge on the subject is limited to the testing we have done and the results we see on targets both paper (50yards) and steel at distance. The basis of that design while attempting to fix one problem may create another namely the design would indicate the actual chamber and engraving are not as important for accuracy, what are your thoughts on that?
I didnt touch on chambers and engraving in my above reply to keep it as simple as possible to understand what I was trying to say while answer your initial questions..
But to answer your question in bold above about chambers and engraving, I personally believe they play a HUGE part in accuracy and consistency I describe.
Having designed my own (22LR Match Eachus) chamber back in 2018 (with the help of a retiring oldtimer 22LR smith at the time) which has now cut well north of 650 barrels, I firmly believe the chamber has a LOT to do with the accuracy and consistency of a 22LR. Up until I created my owner chamber and had a reamer made, I used and tested close to a dozen different 22LR chambers and had various issues with all of them whether it be accuracy, consistency, ammo picky, etc. it set me out to develop my own.
I would say my chamber speaks for itself at this point. You can flip through the pages of this thread alone and find dozens and dozens of results from myself and lots of members shooting barrels with my chamber with unbelievable results across a range of ammo and distances. I have found in my extensive testing of 39+ RimX barrels tested and over 27,000rds of various high end match 22LR ammo that the chamber, combined with a specific amount of engraving makes my combination not ammo picky while providing excellent accuracy and consistency from 50-400+yds.
About engraving, in my initial testing with my reamer before the RimX was released, I found a specific amount of engraving that gave excellent accuracy and consistency on CZ455/457s and Vudoos. These are the rifles I was shooting for years up until RimX's release. I ran multiple CZ barrel fitting and installation group buys for Green Mountains, Bartlein steel and Bartlein Carbon Fiber barrels. Now, because this was before RimX, we were setting headspace and amount of engraving based on Lapua ammo which is what I shot primarily back then (before it became so hard to find consistently). Every person here on SH that took part in the group buy had to send in their actions because every barrel had to be hand fit to their action and headspace. (Again, another reason why we love the RimX, they are so consistent) The accuracy we were achieving with these CZ's and Vudoos with my chamber and the engraving I found was excellent.
When the RimX came out, and we through set headspace out the window, I still required the specific bullet engraving I wanted from the smiths I was working with that used my reamer and cut my barrels. This translated to again excellent accuracy and consistency but this time across all types of ammo, Lapua/SK, Federal Gold Medal Match and Ultramatch, Eley, RWS, etc.
Today, the smiths with my reamer still cut and chamber ALL their barrels to engrave Lapua/SK the way I instructed from day one and the results are still what they were back during my initial testing. I know this because I still get new RimX barrels cut by the smiths to this day and test for accuracy and consistency and compare to my extensive database of results from previous testing. I have another 2 barrels about to by cut right now from my smith for continued testing. Now, cutting a chamber and setting engraving is just one part. Properly finishing a 22LR RimX chamber is very important as well, especially for feeding consistency.
So, just because we dont set headspace based on ammo anymore with a RimX doesnt mean chamber designs and engraving go out the window. They are extremely important along with properly finishing a chamber after cutting..
I had my first 2500X/Rotex/Mullerworks benchrest rifle built this year and had the smith use my reamer to cut my 22LR Match Eachus chamber and set engraving to my desired amount of engraving. This rifle has been nothing short of amazing. Consistently shooting groups in the 0.0s.
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Well after taking a few days to read through this entire thread I ordered one of the ace m24 barrels off of Manzella. I have most of the rest ready to go. Just need an action which several people seem to have in stock.
You won’t be disappointed. Had my ACE 1.2 for about two weeks and it has been a hammer so far.
Yep, Mike's been crushing it for a while now. Top level customer service and top of the line machine work. Every barrel I've got from him has hammered!
I also have a 24 in ACE taper lapped BR-22 contour barrel from Mike. With over 10K rds clocked on the Garmin X zero that confirms its hammer rating. Just clean the chamber & bolt every 200 rds and its runs SK or Eley perfectly. This the third Eachus chambered barrel that Mike has done for me. A really good guy to work with. Outstanding!
Im still of the opinion this is a fix for a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place. Hes correct in what he said in the video, this extractor bolt mod is a fix for those that aren't properly adjusting mags.
If the barrel and chamber are cut properly and the mag is adjusted right, you shouldn't have any issues of getting cases in front of the extractor that need to be picked out with a knife or knocked out with a cleaning rod...
I dont have this issue in 10's of thousands of rounds on my XLR Envy chassis and properly adjusted mags. The only time I had issues with feeding was when I added the mag extensions on my original RimX mags. They came right off and never had a problem again.
I think I’ve only had 1 time the case got in front of the extractor in about 1000rds. Just out of curiosity, how do you adjust your mags? I have one mag with the rimx 5rd extension. I haven’t had any issues with that mag.
This is common knowledge to many but the number 1 cause of issue on the OEM +5 extension is the spring. When you quickly try to put the two halves together the spring will pop out of place. This condition will still allow you to install it. You have to make sure the spring remains in place with a pick or something. You can easily tell by shining a flashlight down into the channel.
I feel my mags are adjusted correctly and I still get occasional issues where the case gets in front of the extractor. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason when it happens but I can promise you there's nothing worse than when it does. lol
My mags are sitting as high as they can into the action, if they go any higher I can't get them to release. If I drop them any lower, they fail to feed properly.
Is it an issue with the angle of the mag sitting in the bottom metal? Maybe. I've had the same random issue across 3 stocks and 1 chassis. Do my springs need to be stretched or replaced? Maybe. Something quick and easy to try.
Do I still love my RimX? Yup! Early on it took Ray and team 2-3 part swaps to get a good tensioner that worked well with my rifle but after that I've been happy as can be even despite the few feeding issues.
My mags are sitting as high as they can into the action, if they go any higher I can't get them to release. If I drop them any lower, they fail to feed properly.
Is it an issue with the angle of the mag sitting in the bottom metal? Maybe. I've had the same random issue across 3 stocks and 1 chassis. Do my springs need to be stretched or replaced? Maybe. Something quick and easy to try.
Do I still love my RimX? Yup! Early on it took Ray and team 2-3 part swaps to get a good tensioner that worked well with my rifle but after that I've been happy as can be even despite the few feeding issues.
The only few times I’ve had a round chamber in front of the extractor is when I’m on the clock at a match. If I’m careless moving prop to prop sometimes the bolt will slide forward beginning the stripping process. I’ll inadvertently pull back on the bolt and then push it forward pushing a round in. Not being able to close the bolt is a dead giveaway of what happened.
Just for clarification....I do not own a Rem-X and have never even shot one. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, just sharing a video I ran across.
As you stated....I think loading mags and adjusting mags are a couple areas where some problems start. I consider myself lucky that the 22LR discipline I chose to compete in doesn't require the use of magazines.
18,000 rounds and change (into my 4th case) 3 cartridge's in front of the bolt. Operator error each time. If your bolt moves forward for any reason never pull back. All you have to do. If somehow or another you cannot come to grips with that sell it.
I have two (#2 has 2500 rounds) they function & feed flawlessly. The TS Customs spun up 5 groove Bartliens not picky about ammo and will run with anything out there. Good Shooting see you at the range
I have two (#2 has 2500 rounds) they function & feed flawlessly. The TS Customs spun up 5 groove Bartliens not picky about ammo and will run with anything out there. Good Shooting see you at the range
I’m pretty sure a high percentage of people who find it an issue don’t actually own one and “read on the internet..”
Same thing applies to dry firing. “I heard you can’t dry fire.” It literally takes seconds to remove the firing pin.
First big range day with my new rimx. Put 500 rounds of SK rifle match through it. Big change from my centerfires. Was a lot of fun and shocking how much wind messed with the bullets even at 50 yards.
Shot paper mostly at 50 and 5-6 groups at 100. Then shot rocks on the 300 and 400 yard berms. 300 was decently consistent but 400 was a joke with around 1 mil of elevation variation.
Wind was swirling and switching left to right. The range has a giant horse shoe berm around the entire 100 yard range.
Doesn’t look like this ammo will be a winner but it was good practice and fun.
I had 5-6 times that the ammo got in front of the extractor and had to be picked out with a knife. From reading it sounds like that’s common and should be fixed with mag adjustment.
Bigger groups were 100 yards smaller 50. And the shotgun pattern was my son shooting the target. All groups are 10 rounds
Shot paper mostly at 50 and 5-6 groups at 100. Then shot rocks on the 300 and 400 yard berms. 300 was decently consistent but 400 was a joke with around 1 mil of elevation variation.
Wind was swirling and switching left to right. The range has a giant horse shoe berm around the entire 100 yard range.
Doesn’t look like this ammo will be a winner but it was good practice and fun.
I had 5-6 times that the ammo got in front of the extractor and had to be picked out with a knife. From reading it sounds like that’s common and should be fixed with mag adjustment.
Bigger groups were 100 yards smaller 50. And the shotgun pattern was my son shooting the target. All groups are 10 rounds
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If your mag is not adjusted properly and you close the bolt on a round you can and will damage the extractor. Then, when you get the mag adjusted properly you may not extract reliably anymore because of the damaged extractor.
Make sure you check your extractor for damage, chips missing out of it since you closed the bolt on a round 5-6 times. That shouldn't be happening and you need to stop and properly adjust.
Maybe I didn’t word it properly. I never closed the bolt on rounds that didn’t feed properly. When I felt the resistance to closing the bolt I stopped each time. Extractor still looks good.
I was told from the gentleman I bought the action from that it was the old style extractor and there is a new style I could buy. Is the new style to help fix this or just a durability fix?
I was told from the gentleman I bought the action from that it was the old style extractor and there is a new style I could buy. Is the new style to help fix this or just a durability fix?
I believe it was a material change. No design difference.
There is no new or old style extractor. Extractor is same design as day 1 as far as I know. They just changed the heat treat I believe.
You're moving the bolt forward and then pulling back, doesn't take much. Next trip out to the range make it happen a couple of times then school yourself on what not to do.
My original RimX with all the rounds is so slick that if I aggressively throw the rifle on a bag the bolt will move halfway home. Do not pull back get lined up on your target, close the bolt and go on. Train smart. Good Shooting see ya'll at the range
Not to be that guy, but I guess I am going to be…
What benefit / benefits does the RimX fixed extractor bring to the table beyond what a spring loaded extractor design action doesn’t? I am not trying to be an ass, it is an honest question.
I get that it eliminates extractor cuts, which allows for a prefit option. But for a true precision 22lr build is that something you really want? I have been around the rimfire game for a while now and have had many extremely high end 22lr repeater precision rifles built on all of the best actions (Anschutz match 54’s, Stiller 2500XR, CZ 455, Vudoo, and a few RimX actions to name a few), each time I had the chambers specifically cut for a particular ammo precisely controlling the case wall to chamber fit, headspace, lead angle, & depth the driving bands engrave into the lands. I don’t really see any prefits offering that. Even if they do it’s a rimfire how many people are smoking a barrel fast enough to necessitate the convince of a prefit.
I guess I do not see the point in bringing in another element that could be a point of failure, no matter if it is an operational or training problem it is still a point of failure that isn’t needed. But that is just my .02
Again not trying to be argumentative or make people cry, just asking an honest question.
What benefit / benefits does the RimX fixed extractor bring to the table beyond what a spring loaded extractor design action doesn’t? I am not trying to be an ass, it is an honest question.
I get that it eliminates extractor cuts, which allows for a prefit option. But for a true precision 22lr build is that something you really want? I have been around the rimfire game for a while now and have had many extremely high end 22lr repeater precision rifles built on all of the best actions (Anschutz match 54’s, Stiller 2500XR, CZ 455, Vudoo, and a few RimX actions to name a few), each time I had the chambers specifically cut for a particular ammo precisely controlling the case wall to chamber fit, headspace, lead angle, & depth the driving bands engrave into the lands. I don’t really see any prefits offering that. Even if they do it’s a rimfire how many people are smoking a barrel fast enough to necessitate the convince of a prefit.
I guess I do not see the point in bringing in another element that could be a point of failure, no matter if it is an operational or training problem it is still a point of failure that isn’t needed. But that is just my .02
Again not trying to be argumentative or make people cry, just asking an honest question.
Plain and simple for me was prefit. That’s it. When I decided to get into the rimfire side of PRS I wanted something I could swap barrels with at will. If there were any benefit(s) to the fixed extractor I sure as hell didn’t care.
I went out again today and was very focused on fully retracting the bolt and pushing forward without coming back again. Had about the same amount of rounds getting in front of the extractor.
I couldn’t find any links on how the mag should be properly adjusted, can anyone shed some light or do I just keep playing with the mag height until it improves?
I also went ahead and ordered new extractor and bolt parts kit from zermatt and will keep the current parts for spares.
As far as rimx vs Vudoo. I went rimx for the prefits, not having to ship my rifle out for a new barrel is really nice. I have sold off all but 1 of my rifles that would not accept prefits and that last rifle will likely be sold as well. Just because it takes prefits doesn’t mean you can’t have a custom barrel spun up if you wanted too.
A side benefit I found is it’s really nice not having to clean the extractor groove in the barrel like my cz457, I imagine is similar on the Vudoo.
I couldn’t find any links on how the mag should be properly adjusted, can anyone shed some light or do I just keep playing with the mag height until it improves?
I also went ahead and ordered new extractor and bolt parts kit from zermatt and will keep the current parts for spares.
As far as rimx vs Vudoo. I went rimx for the prefits, not having to ship my rifle out for a new barrel is really nice. I have sold off all but 1 of my rifles that would not accept prefits and that last rifle will likely be sold as well. Just because it takes prefits doesn’t mean you can’t have a custom barrel spun up if you wanted too.
A side benefit I found is it’s really nice not having to clean the extractor groove in the barrel like my cz457, I imagine is similar on the Vudoo.
I have mine with very little if any vertical play but still allow the mag to drop when pushing the mag catch. If it’s too high up the mag catch has a hard time of letting go. You’ll see what I mean and will get a feel for it.
Travis Stevens, TS Customs said to adjust the mag "up as far as it will go" just touching the receiver. You may have to fiddle with how it inserts and releases. RimX #1 has Surgeon Bottom metal, #2 Accuracy International AT-X, AICS chassis. Five magazines, four 10-round, one 15-round work in both rifles.
When I first got into Precision Rimfire the local Vudoo rifles never fed reliably. The one RimX was flawless.....sold.
My son in-law runs a Vudoo in a Accuracy International AT-X, AICS chassis and it runs just fine.
It's something I never think about when I'm training or shooting a match. Good Shooting. See you at the range
When I first got into Precision Rimfire the local Vudoo rifles never fed reliably. The one RimX was flawless.....sold.
My son in-law runs a Vudoo in a Accuracy International AT-X, AICS chassis and it runs just fine.
It's something I never think about when I'm training or shooting a match. Good Shooting. See you at the range
1 M24 ACE barrel left at Manzella at the sale price. I was just talking to Mike about my 3 barrels he has to cut and he said he has 1 M24 ACE left. He has more on order but doesnt know when they are arriving and they will be back to normal price.
I still have a few good shooting barrels and have parted with a couple. I wasn't looking for another, but after reaading the comments on Mike's skill and the success of ACE barrels, decided to spring for this one. Mike was great to talk with and is already cutting and crowning "my" barrell. Thanks for the heads up Padom. I've tried 5 or 6 different chambers and looking forward to shooting yours.
I bought one of those last 3 also. You won’t be disappointed.
Still patiently waiting on my barrel to arrive. Mike shipped it quickly but UPS decided it should take a tour of the county. It sat in Billings for a few days and then when it finally got to Pennsylvania (Where I live) they sent it to Massachusetts and New York and back on a little vacation. Well now it’s back to my local hub and I should see it tomorrow.
Might have something to do with the Crowdstrike fiasco.. As a business owner with commerical shipping acct with UPS, Fedex and USPS I got notices from UPS and FedEx they were affected and there would be shipping delays.
LOL. I can beat that. UPS took 3 weeks to deliver mine.
UPS 1ZA821K20302224404
Shipped 5-21 delivered 6-10
Wasn't anything Mike did wrong just UPS doing UPS stuff. Mike was easy to work with even during the UPS investigation
three days was what mine was supposed to take. MT to WV. Somehow UPS lost it and didn't track it again until the investigation started. Not sure how that happens. When it arrived box looked fine and barrel was perfect
Well, the barrel showed up today and I bolted everything together. I love it so far plan to shoot it on Saturday.
Big shout out to Mike Manzella. Great to work with and he got my 22" ACE barrel to me in record time. I was most impressed with how precise his machining is, engraving aligning perfectly. Also, I've mounted a dozen or so prefits and usually, there is a slight takeup from hand tightening to torquing. When I torqued the Manzella barrel, there was virtually no movement. I can only attribute to the utmost precision of his work. Can't wait to get some range time. Thanks, Mike.
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I can get an action cleaning tool into the action until just before the ejector but that only gets the action partially clean. What are folks using / how are ppl cleaning the inside of their RimX actions while still on the chassis?
AP brush wrapped in a rag, q tips, dental picks etc. just depends on which area of the action your trying to clean.
Got out today to shoot it and I am very pleased. Here is how it preformed at 50 yards with a variety of ammo in 10 shot groups.
Finally got my Manzella Ace to the range and couldn't be more impressed. It hammers. Took me close to a box of shells to get the new scope and chassis tuned in since I didn't have the luxury of in close shots to see where the scope was. Finally, I dialed down the magnification and saw where it was hitting when aiming at a shadow in the sand. This group was with the cheapest Eley and from past experience, when I get a few hundred rounds through the pipe and break out the SK it,will perform. Thanks MIke, great work. Any one wanting a Vudoo Rimx comparison, I sent the Vudoo off. It shot great but the Rimx is so much smoother, I had to stay wih it. Sorry about the size, I should have selected thumbnail.
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