I feel like im on dangerous grounds by weighing in but i dont see anything wrong with your question. I think we buy the the very finest equipment we can possibly afford and thats because to me confidence is hands down the x factor. If i can upgrade a $100 scope with a $500 because thats what i can afford then I have more confidence and will go the other 10 miles to find what makes that rig shoot like a lazer. Im by no means a great shooter but i do know theres two huge part to the equipment aspect of shooting , the attention to detail when building your rig and buy the best dam equipment your budget allows and even bigger yet is spend the time working up loads to find that sweet ass candy your rig wants to eat. Those rigs will make any of us look like we have serious skill. Pretty generic but hope it helps.
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Rifle Scopes Philosophy of high end optics...
- Thread starter Bakwa
- Start date
Tread lightly...... the pitchforks will come out.
I look at things a little differently. If I cheap out on something I want, I don’t feel like I saved money, I feel like I wasted it. For instance, if I bought a $1500 scope over my S&B US for $3500, I don’t feel like I saved $2000, I feel like I wasted $1500.
Now there are a few reason why I went with the S&B over anything else. It was going on an HK G28 clone build, so anything other than a German S&B on a German rifle felt wrong, especially on a G28. This was my first scope and rifle and let me tell you, hitting 500 yds on the first shot was ridiculously easy. I was surprised to say the least. I thought to myself, “is hitting 500 yds this easy? What’s all the fuss?”
It did really well at 800 &1000 yds too, but I need more practice for 1 shot hits.
Yes I have OCD and I typically plan out my builds for what I want the end goal to be. Next projects, SR-25 with a ZCO and then an AI with a TT. I buy once cry once, and plan to keep my gear forever. But they are all purpose built. Others swap out scopes and gear often, so they would have a different goal for selecting the gear I do.
My recommendation, decide on the purpose you have for your build and buy the best equipment you can afford. And that doesn’t mean the change you have burning in your pocket at that time. If you need to save up, save up. I prefer to have one great gun, than a bunch of mediocre low end guns. It just takes up too much space in the safe.
Now there are a few reason why I went with the S&B over anything else. It was going on an HK G28 clone build, so anything other than a German S&B on a German rifle felt wrong, especially on a G28. This was my first scope and rifle and let me tell you, hitting 500 yds on the first shot was ridiculously easy. I was surprised to say the least. I thought to myself, “is hitting 500 yds this easy? What’s all the fuss?”
It did really well at 800 &1000 yds too, but I need more practice for 1 shot hits.Yes I have OCD and I typically plan out my builds for what I want the end goal to be. Next projects, SR-25 with a ZCO and then an AI with a TT. I buy once cry once, and plan to keep my gear forever. But they are all purpose built. Others swap out scopes and gear often, so they would have a different goal for selecting the gear I do.
My recommendation, decide on the purpose you have for your build and buy the best equipment you can afford. And that doesn’t mean the change you have burning in your pocket at that time. If you need to save up, save up. I prefer to have one great gun, than a bunch of mediocre low end guns. It just takes up too much space in the safe.
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This right here. It all depends on what your priorities are. I’m the original owner of a 2002 Ford F-150 with 195,000 miles on it, and it drips oil onto my driveway from a leaking rear main seal. The way that I see it, every year that I continue to drive it, I can afford to dump money into my hobbies.
I recently picked up a S&B PMII 5-25 for my Vudoo. It’s a great scope that I’ll probably never sell. Is it perfect? Eh.....I don’t know. It certainly feels like a quality piece of kit, and the image quality is very good. Turret spacing is a bit close, and it’s easy to overshoot your dial target, but overall I really like it. No regrets.
I also have a USO LR-17 that honestly isn’t that far behind the S&B. Image quality is pretty close, and I actually prefer the turrets of the USO as far as spacing. I paid about the same for each, and I’ll hold on to both as I don’t like to sell things.
Naturally, the ZCO has my attention as the next thing to get considering all the positive reviews. My friends will tell me I’m insane for dropping $3,600 on a scope. I say they’re insane for dropping $50,000 on their truck. I’d rather drive my POS and have nice toys. It’s all about how you wamy to spend your money, and for me, hobbies bring way more joy than having $50,000 sitting in my driveway depreciating by the day. YMMV
Lou
This is something I feel when I cheap out too. I've been saying for years that I'm too poor to buy cheap gear.
I've gone through many guns and tools finding what works for me best. I've "wasted" a decent amount of money learning too.
After everything has been said and done, one thing I've learned is that I'm hard enough on stuff to where I need to buy durable equipment. I run Glocks, G-Shock watches, Aimpoints on carbines, known name brand garage tools, etc...
Figure out what you want and drop the coin the first time.
Holy shit your reading skills suck
We ALL know that there are labs that can do all the testing you're talking about and more.
We also know that none of us have access to them. So we can logically conclude that a thread like this will be 100% full of subjective, unverifiable opinions from the get go and forever more.
Haven't seen you at Thunder Valley in Ohio, yet.
You know, to show us how it's done.
Exactly. I’ve wasted so much money buying “good enough” in the past to find out I really could have used that extra feature or quality. For what I spent on a bunch of “good enough“ stuff I could have bought what I wanted the first go around and enjoyed my time with it much more. Hell, I still have my Pioneer Elite 141FD plasma I bought in 2008 and it’s been fantastic for 12 years. Everyone went through a bunch of junk or “good enough” TVs over the years that probably amounted to more than I paid for mine in 2008 and never could match the quality. MicroLED will be the successor though.
The problem is not knowing up front if it's going to be a waste or not. Figuring out what you want costs money to get there which is why I'm now a pretty strong believer in just buying used stuff to get behind things, learn if you like it or not, and then start building up / saving for something you do like.
I didn't buy a Vudoo V22 off the bat. I had a 10/22 and then a Tikka T1X. Now I have a Vudoo and I have no regret regarding buying it because I knew after shooting the T1X and doing NRL22 competitions that I would love it and use it a ton. I would say the Tikka T1X and the 10/22 I ended up losing 20% each on shooting those until I got my V22.
Separately I bought a Tikka T3X to go hunting with and realized I don't like to hunt, so I'm super happy that I didn't go and buy a $3000 manners hunting setup.
I think the best advice I have is to buy things used as you can recoup most of the cost for it and you'll get a lot of good experience and time behind scopes, chassis etc.
I went from an Weaver scope, to an Ares BTR, and then an Ares ETR, to a Tract, and now searching for a better reticle that meets my needs. Each one incrementally learning what I like and don't like slowly working my way up. Each scope I lost about $100 on, but I have good experience now between different reticles, turrets, eyeboxes, parallax etc to know what I appreciate. If I magically knew everything up front then sure I could've saved a few hundred dollars but I don't, and wouldn't have learned what worked for me until I tried it.
Think you speak well for the good horsetrader and used buyer........
But not all of us can successfully pick out the used winners....... I bought an AK47 that I had to beat into submission (hung up bolt), and now it works relentlessly, but I'll never trust it in a skirmish, will reach for something else. Likewise, an SKS to back up the AK ammo, will only single fire, think a gas tube problem.......
It takes something special to make a SKS not work.
Back in the day you could pull out old 1950s soviet SKS rifles that were shipped over by the crate load, swab it out and start pounding away without a problem. (Unless you were an idiot enough to try to retrofit the removeable magazine business).
As long as the alpha scope owner didn't literally steal the scope or otherwise illegally obtain the money to buy the scope his justification is not any else's business...except his for his wife of course.
These are terrible examples to use to compare to optics and precision rifles.
Any top tier manufacturer of either will fix an issue regardless if you bought it used or not. You’ll rarely ever hear of a warranty issue with optics or precision rifles.
Exactly I think asking people to "justify" their purchases you is a dick move. Why someone would think they're entitled to "justification" of the purchases of others simply because we're both members of the same online forum is beyond me. If the OP wanted to have a conversation about the differences of scopes in certain price points he could he have asked for one but that's not what he did and it's not the way he worded himself thus again dick move. Lots of people are butthurt that certain items are priced more than they'd like/can afford and that's exactly how this makes the OP come across IMO.
Yeah, it sucked when Trump decreed that it was mandatory to respond to questions on internet forums. We don't even have a choice!
I mean, if it was optional then these dicks on the internet would just be inquirers... Right?
Nobody demanded that you justify anything. A question was asked, and like any question that's asked on this forum, you can volunteer to contribute your knowledge/experience or ignore.
I feel like I'm living in clown world right now.
Yeah, it sucked when Trump decreed that it was mandatory to respond to questions on internet forums. We don't even have a choice!
I mean, if it was optional then these dicks on the internet would just be inquirers... Right?
Nobody demanded that you justify anything. A question was asked, and like any question that's asked on this forum, you can volunteer to contribute your knowledge/experience or ignore.
I feel like I'm living in clown world right now.
All questions are voluntary and that doesn't automatically preclude them from any possibility of being rude.
Bakwa:
I have owned NF NXS F1 3.5-15x50 which represents your $2000 price point and I currently own S&B, Hensoldt, Minox which represent your $3500 threshold.
The only thing that they have in common with that NXS scope is build quality. Everything else is better. Glass, controls, click feel, reticles, everything. It’s not just the glass, it’s the whole package.
I have owned NF NXS F1 3.5-15x50 which represents your $2000 price point and I currently own S&B, Hensoldt, Minox which represent your $3500 threshold.
The only thing that they have in common with that NXS scope is build quality. Everything else is better. Glass, controls, click feel, reticles, everything. It’s not just the glass, it’s the whole package.
As a new-ish shooter there have been a few areas that the ZCO has helped me to more rapidly progress as a shooter over the SB and NF scopes I had previously used. Having the ability to see through mirage a bit better, having a larger FOV as comparable mag ranges, and having better clarity (for my eyes) has helped me spot trace and misses to a much higher degree. There has yet to be a situation where I miss a shot and follow it up with another miss. The TT I had before the ZCO could also do the same fwiw.
Some have said that seeing "the hairs on a gnats balls doesn't matter over just seeing the gnats balls" isn't really an important factor when engaging a target. I would counter that being able to easily see detail in grass and leaves have progressed my wind reading skills at a much more prolific rate. By comparing the ways that various items move at various ranges to what I know as reference points near me makes a huge difference to me.
Originally I made the move to the ZCO for the MPCT2 and the turret feel, however, the above differences from "Tier 2" have made the money spent even more worthwhile. I'm not saying that the ZCO (or a TT) is the scope that makes the most sense to everyone, I'm just adding my experiences to the discussion.
Also, gratuitous DINK life setup pictures
Some have said that seeing "the hairs on a gnats balls doesn't matter over just seeing the gnats balls" isn't really an important factor when engaging a target. I would counter that being able to easily see detail in grass and leaves have progressed my wind reading skills at a much more prolific rate. By comparing the ways that various items move at various ranges to what I know as reference points near me makes a huge difference to me.
Originally I made the move to the ZCO for the MPCT2 and the turret feel, however, the above differences from "Tier 2" have made the money spent even more worthwhile. I'm not saying that the ZCO (or a TT) is the scope that makes the most sense to everyone, I'm just adding my experiences to the discussion.
Also, gratuitous DINK life setup pictures
Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.As a new-ish shooter there have been a few areas that the ZCO has helped me to more rapidly progress as a shooter over the SB and NF scopes I had previously used. Having the ability to see through mirage a bit better, having a larger FOV as comparable mag ranges, and having better clarity (for my eyes) has helped me spot trace and misses to a much higher degree. There has yet to be a situation where I miss a shot and follow it up with another miss. The TT I had before the ZCO could also do the same fwiw.
Some have said that seeing "the hairs on a gnats balls doesn't matter over just seeing the gnats balls" isn't really an important factor when engaging a target. I would counter that being able to easily see detail in grass and leaves have progressed my wind reading skills at a much more prolific rate. By comparing the ways that various items move at various ranges to what I know as reference points near me makes a huge difference to me.
Originally I made the move to the ZCO for the MPCT2 and the turret feel, however, the above differences from "Tier 2" have made the money spent even more worthwhile. I'm not saying that the ZCO (or a TT) is the scope that makes the most sense to everyone, I'm just adding my experiences to the discussion.
Also, gratuitous DINK life setup pictures
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Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3.
You have a very nice setup as well.
While I’m new to the whole long range game, but not shooting and while reading all these posts, I asked myself, how many of you shoot to your scopes or rifles full potential?
My take is buy what you can afford that has the features you want and when your skill out pass your gear, budget to move up.
My take is buy what you can afford that has the features you want and when your skill out pass your gear, budget to move up.
How would one shoot to a scope’s full potential?
Say you have two scopes: a $1500 Cronus and a $3000 ATACR.
By your rules, no one would ever need an ATACR.
Say you have two scopes: a $1500 Cronus and a $3000 ATACR.
By your rules, no one would ever need an ATACR.
I paid $5000 for LASIK so I could see clearly without glasses, and get a couple decades before needing reading glasses too. Why hamstring that clarity with cheap glass?
The ZCO that I’m waiting for might not directly make me a better shooter, but if the image is clearer than the Cronus BTR that I could afford 2 years ago, I’ll be happy.
The ZCO that I’m waiting for might not directly make me a better shooter, but if the image is clearer than the Cronus BTR that I could afford 2 years ago, I’ll be happy.
I think they mean something like if the shooter wouldn't improve by using the the more expensive scope then they're not using the "full potential" of their current setup.
But are you using that $5k LASIK to its fullest potential??? Maybe you should’ve went to a strip mall for $1500 until it was holding you back and THEN upgrade.
Yes, that’s exactly it
I’m a RSO and I can’t tell you how many times I have guys with tricked out rigs come and can’t shoot for shit, they could have easily been served well with something less expensive and honed their skills.
But this implies you know what their financial situation is, who cares how other people spend their money if it makes them happy.
The point I was trying to make is that people can easily start with something less expensive and it can serve them well. Regardless if they can afford something more expensive.
But are you using that $5k LASIK to its fullest potential??? Maybe you should’ve went to a strip mall for $1500 until it was holding you back and THEN upgrade.
Thankfully, unlike surgery, scopes can only permanently ruin your vision if they’re made by Quigley Ford.Absolutely. Buying the best won’t make you a good shooter. Buying the best you can afford MIGHT help you avoid certain handicaps, and buying the cheapest probably won’t teach you shit. If your scope holds zero, your rifle still has rifling and doesn’t rattle when you shake it, and your ammo is all the same color with no dents, that’s enough to get started with the basics.
Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.
Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3.
You have a very nice setup as well.
Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.
Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3.
You have a very nice setup as well.
Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.
Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3.
You have a very nice setup as well.
I also think that a lot
So much of it is dependent on where you’re at in life. I got back into shooting after a 20 year hiatus while I went out and explored the world. Fast forward to being married, having 3 kids, Work, etc., and all of the sudden thoughts of PRS competition and other endeavors become just dreams. So, you decide to find a path that lets you get the most enjoyment out of your hobby while imposing the least amount of time demand. That’s how I arrived at the idea to break down my .223 PRS style rig and build a Vudoo V22. I went as far as to put a S&B PMII on it. It is easily the nicest rifle I’ve ever owned, and it is very accurate. Me, the wife and kids get significant time on it out in the desert every other weekend or so. All in the rig is probably $5,500, but I absolutely love it as do my wife and kids. It’s amazing to see the levels of accuracy that all of them display at times. Is it better than I am as a marksman? Absolutely, but it brings a lot of joy every time it’s used. At 50 I know that my good years are limited. For once I want to actually get what I want and enjoy what it offers. Life is too short to not get what you want.
Lou
My point was that both the Cronus and ATACR are equally capable. Their potential is the same. One costs twice as much as the other.
I haven't gotten behind a Cronus, but I do have experience with ATACR's. And I have friends who have a significant amount of time behind ATACR's. One thing that I can say with confidence that would make the ATACR worth more to some is that they have been tested, fielded, and beat up under a variety of conditions.
Even if the Cronus is an objective equal in every other way, I can see why one would pay more for [or need] the ATACR's durability. It's earned at least that.
Are you kidding me? I wish there was only one of them here. I also wish I could explain it. My ex wife used to call it the bucket of shit theory. Basically, those people walk around all day throwing shit on anyone who crossed paths with them. Then they go home at night look in the mirror and say “How bad can I be, everyone else I saw today is covered in shit?” I can say this though, in many forums those perps are the ones who are some type of moderator. This is the first time they have any authority and they abuse the hell out of it to try and get back at the human race because their lunch money was taken throughout their school days.
Zco and S&Bs are awesome scopes, there is no waste of money there imo. If you like it, then it’s worth it.
But for the overall performance perspective, people are dropping moose and winning 2-day PRS matches with Vortex Razors.
But for the overall performance perspective, people are dropping moose and winning 2-day PRS matches with Vortex Razors.
OP - FYI the thread is a shit show.
Maybe all the posters before #38 were not that far off base.
Maybe all the posters before #38 were not that far off base.
mmm I’ll have to disagree with this. Full potential of performance capabilities is just one aspect of top notch gear.
say you’re a new shooter that bought an AI or full custom with a zco as your first rifle instead of a ruger rpr with a vortex strike eagle.
You decide you want to shoot matches. Show up to your first match and it dumps rain.
You may not know how to build a position worth a shit, but at least you’ve greatly improved your chances that you’ll get to try to learn on all 20 stages Rather than your rifle or scope going down on stage 3 of day 1 and you wasted all that travel time/money just to watch the rest of us.
who then becomes the better shooter? The guy who got 20 stages of experience that weekend or the guy who had to leave early?
I literally see similar situations like this almost every match I shoot.
another thing top gear brings is confidence. Let’s say you start reloading, I remember when I started reloading it was beyond words how valuable the confidence was that I had in my rifle. As a self taught reloader, I knew if it didn’t shoot the ammo well it was my reloading practices that needed refining not my new rifle.
You may be right.
But it's not a shit show because of people debating back and forth on subjective measurements of scope value [which was the implied warning]. It's a shit show because of the people warning of the "shit show" as well as people attempting to read into my original post as insinuating that higher end optics aren't worth buying over cheaper options. I certainly never said that and never meant to imply that. I just wanted to know how others justified that jump.
There are at least 50 great posts in this thread. It's just unfortunate that a reader has to peel through layers of mud to extract them.
I’m not a collector. I use everything in my safe often. Like many of the other night hunting dudes here I am about shooting a couple nights a week, all year. Through hard work and looking after peoples land I have acquired thousands of acres I can come and go on anytime. When someone has a cat, dog, or livestock killed by a coyote around here I’ll usually get a call and get another place to hunt. I love it.
I’ve consolidated many guns into a few that fill night hunting roles and defensive roles. Now having said that, those few guns and optics are usually top shelf. I’ve been through a ton of shit in the last 10 years personally. My shooting and getting out at night has been my therapy. That high end German glass was bought instead of TN glass bottles or trying to claim a spot at a bar. My time is very valuable to me. If I am going to spend 5 hours out watching a field, I want to have the best equipment I can buy out there with me. I don’t fish, so I don’t have a money pit boat. I don’t ride motorcycles. I don’t have 3-4 other hobbies. The wife and I decided early on to not have kids. That choice was made so we both could live he lives we wanted to live. I shoot, I train and I hunt pest animals (And shitpost on the internet). I catch a lot of shit verbally among people I know for what I have tied up in my rigs. Usually by those who have money sunk into the things I listed above. I always lol when someone makes a comment about the money I spend on something like a thermal, when they have the same money tied up in fish finders, electric anchor pole thingies, tackle,.... Which one has the better resale? I am also the type of dude who will pull a decked out AI with night capability out of the safe and take someone interested along without a second thought.
It comes down to priorities. Buy what makes you happy or what you need for application X. Don’t worry about what others have due to peer pressure but what fits the list of requirements you have. I wanted the most compact (room for clip on nods),large range magnification scope with exceptional glass I could find. That left the Henny. I could do without the huge turrets but I absolutely love the scopes. Just don’t be casting open judgement at me because my scope says Airbus and I will not do the same because your scope says something else.
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You hit the nail on the head Covert as i posted on this topic thats the same way i feel about shooting, you just said it much better
. Im just getting back into loading and shooting agian after 3 yrs. Hurricane Harvey did quite a number on my home and life and dam it feels good to shoot again, reloading and some trigger time is good medicine. I think the best experiance and confidence builder is knowing your equipment is solid (hence dont spare the coin, buy the best gear you can) and perfecting your reloading skill along with shooting skill, seeing how those different loads perform and watching how those groups tighten up with some tweeking. I actually feel myself relax and get into a groove acheiving much better results when i know exactly how that round is going to perform.I look at things a little differently. If I cheap out on something I want, I don’t feel like I saved money, I feel like I wasted it. For instance, if I bought a $1500 scope over my S&B US for $3500, I don’t feel like I saved $2000, I feel like I wasted $1500.
Now there are a few reason why I went with the S&B over anything else. It was going on an HK G28 clone build, so anything other than a German S&B on a German rifle felt wrong, especially on a G28. This was my first scope and rifle and let me tell you, hitting 500 yds on the first shot was ridiculously easy. I was surprised to say the least. I thought to myself, “is hitting 500 yds this easy? What’s all the fuss?”
Yes I have OCD and I typically plan out my builds for what I want the end goal to be. Next projects, SR-25 with a ZCO and then an AI with a TT. I buy once cry once, and plan to keep my gear forever. But they are all purpose built. Others swap out scopes and gear often, so they would have a different goal for selecting the gear I do.
My recommendation, decide on the purpose you have for your build and buy the best equipment you can afford. And that doesn’t mean the change you have burning in your pocket at that time. If you need to save up, save up. I prefer to have one great gun, than a bunch of mediocre low end guns. It just takes up too much space in the safe.
I’m just sayin...
Again it goes back to your original question that got off the ground with many including me thinking you were trying to justify not buying the top of the line.
Clearly after 4+pages it's clear that was not your intention and you are buying said top of the line. No one cares what folks buy, and many great reasons to not spend top dollar.
This place is locked and loaded for justification threads.
There’s a reviewer on here, I believe his username is WSG08, that doesn’t address this question directly but does have a lot of insight into scopes. Probably worth checking out. I’ve been learning a lot from him. And long story short, it sounds like the differences are minimal, but if you don’t care about money, you’ll enjoy the “luxury” of the higher end scopes.
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