Member Link Up Puget Sound Area Shooter's Group
- Thread starter -Nick-
- Start date
Shooters,
We are going to try something new for the January 4, 2014 match. With our recent purchase of more targets, we now have enough steel to try some new ideas.
We are going to have four classes of rifles, there will be three different sizes of targets for the various classes, but all targets will be at the same distances regardless of class. Bolt and semi-auto will be separated within the classes. We wanted to do something to make it reasonable for those with a Garand, 1903, or other iron sighted rifles, or high capacity general issue rifles a way to join us and shoot.
Open class: any power optic
Designated Marksman class: Optic up to 10X
Iron sight, or basic military rifle: No more than a 4X optic
To give an idea of the target sizes for the various groups, the targets at 300 yards would be:
Open: 8" round (50.28 Sq/in) Flourescent pink
DMR: 10" round (78.57 Sq/in) Flourescent green
Iron/basic: 12" square (144 Sq/in) Flourescent orange
One of the target racks will likely hold both the Open and DMR plates, with the third plate very close by.
One course of fire will allow a few more rounds for DMR and Iron/basic, but the time limit will remain the same for all groups.
We will only be giving a very general description of the course of fire. The match will not have any "advanced" positions, so simply practicing the basic four positions will be good enough.
Target racks for the January match will at 6 different distances from 100 to 540 yards, with three targets at each distance. The group you shoot in determines which target you shoot at that distance.
STAGE 1: Prone-no bags or pillows. Bi-pods OK. 120 seconds
Between 15-24 rounds depending on your rifle's classification
STAGE 2: Under the table, then on top of, and then into the doghouse.
18 rounds, 180 seconds
STAGE 3: Kneeling and seated unsupported inside the 44" box. 12 rounds/120 seconds. Most distant target for this stage will be about 300 yards.
STAGE 4: Standing, kneeling, seated, prone. 15 rounds, 180 seconds
Pillows and bi-pods OK from prone.
All stages will award the most points for a first round hit. We will again be using only the 550 yard range, so the match will be limited to 20 shooters.
Feel free to send general questions about the match format in general. Please keep in mind that we won't be giving out more detail about the courses off fire until the match.
See you in January.
Anton and Kevin
We are going to try something new for the January 4, 2014 match. With our recent purchase of more targets, we now have enough steel to try some new ideas.
We are going to have four classes of rifles, there will be three different sizes of targets for the various classes, but all targets will be at the same distances regardless of class. Bolt and semi-auto will be separated within the classes. We wanted to do something to make it reasonable for those with a Garand, 1903, or other iron sighted rifles, or high capacity general issue rifles a way to join us and shoot.
Open class: any power optic
Designated Marksman class: Optic up to 10X
Iron sight, or basic military rifle: No more than a 4X optic
To give an idea of the target sizes for the various groups, the targets at 300 yards would be:
Open: 8" round (50.28 Sq/in) Flourescent pink
DMR: 10" round (78.57 Sq/in) Flourescent green
Iron/basic: 12" square (144 Sq/in) Flourescent orange
One of the target racks will likely hold both the Open and DMR plates, with the third plate very close by.
One course of fire will allow a few more rounds for DMR and Iron/basic, but the time limit will remain the same for all groups.
We will only be giving a very general description of the course of fire. The match will not have any "advanced" positions, so simply practicing the basic four positions will be good enough.
Target racks for the January match will at 6 different distances from 100 to 540 yards, with three targets at each distance. The group you shoot in determines which target you shoot at that distance.
STAGE 1: Prone-no bags or pillows. Bi-pods OK. 120 seconds
Between 15-24 rounds depending on your rifle's classification
STAGE 2: Under the table, then on top of, and then into the doghouse.
18 rounds, 180 seconds
STAGE 3: Kneeling and seated unsupported inside the 44" box. 12 rounds/120 seconds. Most distant target for this stage will be about 300 yards.
STAGE 4: Standing, kneeling, seated, prone. 15 rounds, 180 seconds
Pillows and bi-pods OK from prone.
All stages will award the most points for a first round hit. We will again be using only the 550 yard range, so the match will be limited to 20 shooters.
Feel free to send general questions about the match format in general. Please keep in mind that we won't be giving out more detail about the courses off fire until the match.
See you in January.
Anton and Kevin
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Hey Guys and Gals, a little match info,
Just a reminder that registration is THIS COMING Monday at 10AM PST. If you are serious about getting into the match, Please try to be on your computer at 10AM. The shopping cart will automatically go live right at 10AM.
I would love to have every one of you guys and gals shooting it. But we can only take 90 shooters. If you have any questions or comments, please hit me up.
Thanks a ton for all your support!
Just a reminder that registration is THIS COMING Monday at 10AM PST. If you are serious about getting into the match, Please try to be on your computer at 10AM. The shopping cart will automatically go live right at 10AM.
I would love to have every one of you guys and gals shooting it. But we can only take 90 shooters. If you have any questions or comments, please hit me up.
Thanks a ton for all your support!
Everyone,
Kevin's accurate proof reading got me...I changed the original posting to reflect the CORRECT range we will be using (the 550)
Thanks Kevin.
Kevin's accurate proof reading got me...I changed the original posting to reflect the CORRECT range we will be using (the 550)
Thanks Kevin.
The sign-up list for the January 4, 2014 practical rifle match at UNSC is located in the tactical shooting competitions area of this site.
I'm trying to figure out how to put a link directly to it. It will be soon apparent whether my computer-fu is weak or strong...
12-15-2013, 01:56 PM #57
The above is the best I can do with my comuter-fu. I use an imac computer, and I have tried for 2 hours various ways to cut and paste in order to try and get a direct link from one thread to another. If I click on the #57, all that comes out on this end is "#57". There may be a way to link one thread to another, but with my current computer-fu, and machine, linking threads isn't working. People will just have to hunt it out for themselves...very sorry about that.
All suggestions gratefully accepted (at least those related to linking one thread to another)...suggestions like "take a long walk off a short pier, not so much...
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-nisqually-sportsmans-club-2.html#post2844845
I'm trying to figure out how to put a link directly to it. It will be soon apparent whether my computer-fu is weak or strong...
12-15-2013, 01:56 PM #57
The above is the best I can do with my comuter-fu. I use an imac computer, and I have tried for 2 hours various ways to cut and paste in order to try and get a direct link from one thread to another. If I click on the #57, all that comes out on this end is "#57". There may be a way to link one thread to another, but with my current computer-fu, and machine, linking threads isn't working. People will just have to hunt it out for themselves...very sorry about that.
All suggestions gratefully accepted (at least those related to linking one thread to another)...suggestions like "take a long walk off a short pier, not so much...
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-nisqually-sportsmans-club-2.html#post2844845
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I'm a Red belt in Google Fu here's the link
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-nisqually-sportsmans-club-2.html#post2844845
All you need to do is copy the web address at the top of your internet page http://forum.snipershid......... and just paste it in here it will auto format the name to the thread, no need to click any other buttons or anything, its like magic
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-nisqually-sportsmans-club-2.html#post2844845
All you need to do is copy the web address at the top of your internet page http://forum.snipershid......... and just paste it in here it will auto format the name to the thread, no need to click any other buttons or anything, its like magic
AtOne,
Many thanks, I owe you a beer. Thanks for the computer-fu promotion! Now I have gone from a white belt to a yellow belt.
Many thanks, I owe you a beer. Thanks for the computer-fu promotion! Now I have gone from a white belt to a yellow belt.
Does anyone in our Washington group need a set of Colt grips for a 1911 pistol? They are the black wood grips with the Colt medalion that came off of a Stainless Colt 1911. These will be given with the expectation that whoever wants them will actually use them and not take them to resell. (I know how to sell stuff if that was my goal) As this is a Christmas PIF, I'll even cover the shipping if you aren't close enough to meet me and pick them up.
Grips going out to Spot-On.
Grips going out to Spot-On.
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Alan_H
If we get the 100 yard range back, then we would have more slots available for people to shoot two categories. With only 20 slots available, at this time it isn't feasible for us to have people shooting in two categories.
Kevin and I discussed this earlier when we DID have the 100 yard range. We were at the point of trying to figure out how we would work out the logistics of having some people shooting two rifles when we lost he 100 yard range. UNSC's board of directors has to balance out members who gripe that the 100 yard range is being used for a match so they can't shoot there, with the knowledge that our matches bring in a considerable amount of money to help pay the bills. The 100 yard range is only for members, so there aren't any guest fees associated with that range unless we are using it for a match.
As with any organization, the board has to play politics with the members who complain. Unfortunately, Kevin, myself, and 3-4 other people are the only members at the club who shoot practical rifle, so our voices aren't as "loud" as the people who complain to the board about not being able to shoot on the 100 yard range. If more members participated in practical rifle, and started letting the board know they would like the program to expand back onto the 100 yard range, that would make a difference. Maybe over time, with us changing the match format to have more categories available, more members will want to participate. Then our "voice" would be more noticeable.
If we get the 100 yard range back, then we would have more slots available for people to shoot two categories. With only 20 slots available, at this time it isn't feasible for us to have people shooting in two categories.
Kevin and I discussed this earlier when we DID have the 100 yard range. We were at the point of trying to figure out how we would work out the logistics of having some people shooting two rifles when we lost he 100 yard range. UNSC's board of directors has to balance out members who gripe that the 100 yard range is being used for a match so they can't shoot there, with the knowledge that our matches bring in a considerable amount of money to help pay the bills. The 100 yard range is only for members, so there aren't any guest fees associated with that range unless we are using it for a match.
As with any organization, the board has to play politics with the members who complain. Unfortunately, Kevin, myself, and 3-4 other people are the only members at the club who shoot practical rifle, so our voices aren't as "loud" as the people who complain to the board about not being able to shoot on the 100 yard range. If more members participated in practical rifle, and started letting the board know they would like the program to expand back onto the 100 yard range, that would make a difference. Maybe over time, with us changing the match format to have more categories available, more members will want to participate. Then our "voice" would be more noticeable.
With annual membership at UNSC running only $85, I suggest that a number of us that participate in the match on a regular basis get a membership and that we should begin to show up at some of these club meetings and let our voices be heard. I suspect that between the economics of this regular event and having more 'members' speaking up that this is a good thing, we could get the additional 100 yard range and we would have a lot more slots available.
Mike and I we're talking today discussing the match and came up with a question about the different classes and we're curious how someone shooting a rifle unsupported with optics larger than 10x has an advantage over someone whose shooting at 4x.
To me it kind of makes no sense to have someone who is more than likely using a rifle with higher power optics weighing in at 15 to 17lbs having to shoot the smaller targets unsupported because of a zoom ratio. When I shoot unsupported I usually dial back to 8 or 12x anyways to get rid of the sway factor.
Where as someone using a DMR rifle with an ACOG or Iron sights rifle is probably coming in at around 8 to 10lbs and has larger targets to shoot at.
Am I missing something in the equation ? I can see it being an advantage with higher powered optics from supported positions but unsupported everyone is kind of dealing with the same thing with the only difference being the weight you have to hold up for the duration of the stage.
Not knocking it at all just wondering why .
To me it kind of makes no sense to have someone who is more than likely using a rifle with higher power optics weighing in at 15 to 17lbs having to shoot the smaller targets unsupported because of a zoom ratio. When I shoot unsupported I usually dial back to 8 or 12x anyways to get rid of the sway factor.
Where as someone using a DMR rifle with an ACOG or Iron sights rifle is probably coming in at around 8 to 10lbs and has larger targets to shoot at.
Am I missing something in the equation ? I can see it being an advantage with higher powered optics from supported positions but unsupported everyone is kind of dealing with the same thing with the only difference being the weight you have to hold up for the duration of the stage.
Not knocking it at all just wondering why .
Eric, 4X scope and 6x and 100 are all the same. At 10x you will just see the wobble in the scope more.
I usually shoot my positional and unsupported at 8X anyway. If I could get Down to 5x I would but my reticle gets too small
I usually shoot my positional and unsupported at 8X anyway. If I could get Down to 5x I would but my reticle gets too small
I'll be that asshole that says it... This only works if EVERYONE does it together rather than leaving someone on their own to be the only voice. And right now rather than listening to those members the Board will simply kick you out of the club rather than bide by their own Charter and By-Laws if what your saying goes against any of the Boards opinion because they're more interested in their own personal priorities than that of the club. Then if you choose to resign from the Club rather than deal with their unprofessional and biased attitude they again go against their own By-Laws and Regs to issue a No-Tresspass order barring you from attending the matches based upon made-up safety complaints. Don't expect the Board to hold themselves accountable for their own actions either because apparently it's acceptable for a Board Member to threaten a Member of the Club but if the threat is returned then the Member is the guilty party.
On another note: Just got a message from S&B, if you thought you EVER wanted an S&B now is the time... getting rid of the 2013s for UNDER $3000.... PM me and I can let you know what they have. I recieved the email last night and I would be surprised if they are there all day today!
AtOne
The reason we made up some different classes was primarily so that people with iron sight rifles, or rifles that run the "issue" type of optics that run to about 4X could have a way to "come out and play".
You are right that there isn't a huge difference between a DMR and the open classes when it is simply based on scope power. However, having the option to turn the scope up past 10X for shooting at the 540 yard targets is a bit of an advantage. To be sure, having a more accurate rifle, would be a bigger advantage than the scope's potential power. And the argument could always be made that DMR rifles should be restricted to the 7.62x51 cartridge.
The weight of rifles people have to support is something that is a very real consideration in building rifles. It is a trade off for a rifle that is mostly for supported position shooting VS a rifle that someone would be willing to carry to and from a hunt, or a fight. Weight, scope power, cartridge selection, barrel length are all some of the considerations we make when we begin trying to build our rifles, or to come up with a rifle that is as close as possible to a "do most things" rifles. Having to hold a heavier rifle is most certainly a disadvantage over someone having a rifle that is lighter. If the rifles get too light though, it goes the other way, and the rifles won't "settle" as well for offhand shooting.
I don't think there will ever be a way to get everyone to agree on classifications, cartridges, rules and so on. Looking at Lowlight's recent thread about the shooting he is considering is a perfect example.
In the end, we are only shooting for practice though as there isnt anything big to be won at the UNSC matches other than bragging rights. I figure that there will always be someone who can outshoot me due to either skill, or equipment, so my biggest hurdle to overcome is my own skill, or the lack thereof. I just figured that making up some different classifications with different sized targets might make it possible for more people to come out and shoot.
The reason we made up some different classes was primarily so that people with iron sight rifles, or rifles that run the "issue" type of optics that run to about 4X could have a way to "come out and play".
You are right that there isn't a huge difference between a DMR and the open classes when it is simply based on scope power. However, having the option to turn the scope up past 10X for shooting at the 540 yard targets is a bit of an advantage. To be sure, having a more accurate rifle, would be a bigger advantage than the scope's potential power. And the argument could always be made that DMR rifles should be restricted to the 7.62x51 cartridge.
The weight of rifles people have to support is something that is a very real consideration in building rifles. It is a trade off for a rifle that is mostly for supported position shooting VS a rifle that someone would be willing to carry to and from a hunt, or a fight. Weight, scope power, cartridge selection, barrel length are all some of the considerations we make when we begin trying to build our rifles, or to come up with a rifle that is as close as possible to a "do most things" rifles. Having to hold a heavier rifle is most certainly a disadvantage over someone having a rifle that is lighter. If the rifles get too light though, it goes the other way, and the rifles won't "settle" as well for offhand shooting.
I don't think there will ever be a way to get everyone to agree on classifications, cartridges, rules and so on. Looking at Lowlight's recent thread about the shooting he is considering is a perfect example.
In the end, we are only shooting for practice though as there isnt anything big to be won at the UNSC matches other than bragging rights. I figure that there will always be someone who can outshoot me due to either skill, or equipment, so my biggest hurdle to overcome is my own skill, or the lack thereof. I just figured that making up some different classifications with different sized targets might make it possible for more people to come out and shoot.
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I was kind of surprised to see the new system since I never really heard anyone complain about the matches or the way they were run before, not to mention the fact that we're not shooting for money or prizes. I really don't have any idea what goes on in the background, but were there people complaining that they came out with an iron sighted Garand (just an example I'm making up) and didn't place high enough in the standings for their liking?
The only other initial thought I had was related to the sheer number of targets. I know we've had situations in past matches where from various positions a target was at least partially obstructed by another target or stand. If we're going to have 6 target locations, each with 3 pieces of steel now, is it going to be feasible to arrange everything so that targets or stands aren't in the way of each other?
I love these UNSC matches and would hate to see what was a really fun and low-key event turn into something much more complicated than it has to be in an attempt to be too many things to too many different people.
The only other initial thought I had was related to the sheer number of targets. I know we've had situations in past matches where from various positions a target was at least partially obstructed by another target or stand. If we're going to have 6 target locations, each with 3 pieces of steel now, is it going to be feasible to arrange everything so that targets or stands aren't in the way of each other?
I love these UNSC matches and would hate to see what was a really fun and low-key event turn into something much more complicated than it has to be in an attempt to be too many things to too many different people.
Nine,
There haven't been any complaints, nor are we trying to re-invent the wheel, we just thought that some people have rifles like FN-Scar's, or Garands they might want to come out and shoot those rifles, so if it is feasible to do a range set up that accomodates that, we would give it a try. I have had some inquiries about people wanting to shoot in more than one catagory though. Until/unless we get the 100 yard range back, we won't be having people shooting two rifles because of time constraints. Like other things we have tried, this might be a one time thing that we never do again. We wouldn't know if it is a worthwhile effort unless we give it a try.
Your thoughts about range clutter was one of our considerations. To deal with that, the target racks will be placed close enough together so all the targets at one distance would be placed within 3-10 yards of each other. At least two targets at that distance would be on one rack with the third target right next to it. That should reduce range clutter, and make finding the rack of targets for that distance easier. There will be different flourescent colors used so the shooter in a given catagory knows that throughout the match he/she only shoots the color assigned to the group they want to shoot in.
In most matches we use between 10-12 targets at various distances. In this match, there will only be 6 distances. It is hoped that reducing the number of distances should solve much of the range clutter problem.
We won't know if anything will be fun, or a flop unless we give it a try. I tend to be a "give it a try" person, but I am also more than willing to admit when something doesn't work out and not continue persuing a loosing or fruitless endeavor.
There haven't been any complaints, nor are we trying to re-invent the wheel, we just thought that some people have rifles like FN-Scar's, or Garands they might want to come out and shoot those rifles, so if it is feasible to do a range set up that accomodates that, we would give it a try. I have had some inquiries about people wanting to shoot in more than one catagory though. Until/unless we get the 100 yard range back, we won't be having people shooting two rifles because of time constraints. Like other things we have tried, this might be a one time thing that we never do again. We wouldn't know if it is a worthwhile effort unless we give it a try.
Your thoughts about range clutter was one of our considerations. To deal with that, the target racks will be placed close enough together so all the targets at one distance would be placed within 3-10 yards of each other. At least two targets at that distance would be on one rack with the third target right next to it. That should reduce range clutter, and make finding the rack of targets for that distance easier. There will be different flourescent colors used so the shooter in a given catagory knows that throughout the match he/she only shoots the color assigned to the group they want to shoot in.
In most matches we use between 10-12 targets at various distances. In this match, there will only be 6 distances. It is hoped that reducing the number of distances should solve much of the range clutter problem.
We won't know if anything will be fun, or a flop unless we give it a try. I tend to be a "give it a try" person, but I am also more than willing to admit when something doesn't work out and not continue persuing a loosing or fruitless endeavor.
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The only propblem with UNSC is that we need to allow them to run the club even if we are members and want to have the matches we also need to allow other shooters to use the range we do take up most of a saturday when most people go to the range. even though its once a month its still most of a day that we eat up. Maybe we should go to the meetings and see what we can do to help the facility more. donate time give them more money. Remember we want them to want us there not be arrogant. Yes more of should become members.
Regarding the addition of more targets and more shooters. I say we use the same targets and give them more time we really dont need more clutter on the range to shoot through or around the time is already rushed. To make it easier on the beginers maybe make the obsticals less of a challenge for them unless they want to shoot out of the dog house or things like that.
Regarding the addition of more targets and more shooters. I say we use the same targets and give them more time we really dont need more clutter on the range to shoot through or around the time is already rushed. To make it easier on the beginers maybe make the obsticals less of a challenge for them unless they want to shoot out of the dog house or things like that.
Steveptr,
Our goal with adding various classes was to try and make it more "accessible" for beginners, or people who don't have $4000-5000 to spend on gear. Lots of people have an AR15 that they spent $1500 on counting optics, or an old Garand, M1A FN-FAL and so on.
Any ideas you have on how we can modify the courses of fire to make it less intimidating, easier, or less challenging for newcomers would be gratefully received. We may run into some shooters who resent new shooters being allowed to shoot a modified course of fire, but maybe they will see the benefits.
I try to remain very sensitive to the desire of other members to have access to the club. The majority of members who want to shoot at UNSC probably want to come out on weekends. The club's calendar shows that many weekend days have various ranges shut down for organized activities like practical rifle, pistol shoots on steel, high power, bench rest, 50 caliber and so on. We are just one of a number of groups asking for range use privileges. As very few of the people who shoot practical rifle are actually members of the club, it seems only reasonable that the board would give more weight to members desires for range use privileges than to non-members.
The board also has to decide how to get the money to keep the club running. Money for that comes from member dues, match entry fees, and other activities asking for range use privileges. The board members do a great deal of work for no pay, and for all their work, the mostly get to deal with complaints. It's my guess that complaints to board members outweigh compliments and thanks by 10 to 1. Kevin and I try really hard to NOT be a pain in the butt group. So far, information I have heard is that generally, the people who shoot practical rifle are the sort of people that the club likes having there.
Our goal with adding various classes was to try and make it more "accessible" for beginners, or people who don't have $4000-5000 to spend on gear. Lots of people have an AR15 that they spent $1500 on counting optics, or an old Garand, M1A FN-FAL and so on.
Any ideas you have on how we can modify the courses of fire to make it less intimidating, easier, or less challenging for newcomers would be gratefully received. We may run into some shooters who resent new shooters being allowed to shoot a modified course of fire, but maybe they will see the benefits.
I try to remain very sensitive to the desire of other members to have access to the club. The majority of members who want to shoot at UNSC probably want to come out on weekends. The club's calendar shows that many weekend days have various ranges shut down for organized activities like practical rifle, pistol shoots on steel, high power, bench rest, 50 caliber and so on. We are just one of a number of groups asking for range use privileges. As very few of the people who shoot practical rifle are actually members of the club, it seems only reasonable that the board would give more weight to members desires for range use privileges than to non-members.
The board also has to decide how to get the money to keep the club running. Money for that comes from member dues, match entry fees, and other activities asking for range use privileges. The board members do a great deal of work for no pay, and for all their work, the mostly get to deal with complaints. It's my guess that complaints to board members outweigh compliments and thanks by 10 to 1. Kevin and I try really hard to NOT be a pain in the butt group. So far, information I have heard is that generally, the people who shoot practical rifle are the sort of people that the club likes having there.
It's good to hear that the board is generally positive about our presence there,... so far. I don't see how simply opening it up to iron-sights, or thin-barrelled hunting rigs will bring anyone 'new' to the contests, as pretty much everyone I've met at the matches has been funneled to them from this site,... or by someone who was initially funneled to it from this site. Maybe there's some other marketing/advertisement that I don't know about, but I think something like an ad on the website, or a flyer would be necessary to garner any additional interest regardless the equipment used.
In the interest of opening up these contests to 'new' shooters, I think one of the most intimidating aspects of our contests is that the 'ol stalwart competitors have their dope sheets nailed (for the most part) and there is a real fear of embarrassment for a new shooter who doesn't have total confidence in their rig/load/dope to enter such a competition against guys/gals who can run a stage if given enough time. One thing I've always thought would be great at these contests is to offer the use of chrono's and ballistic software, i.e. our Android, iPhone, PocketPC apps, to help the newer shooters build confidence in their equipment. In addition to having a safety briefing before the contest, having 2,3,4 chrono's set up and attending, affable, patient, RO's helping new shooters walk through the steps of getting zero'd, finding their velocity, inputting the data into a ballistic solver, and generating a useful dope chart for the course of fire would be a real confidence boost for the new folks, and give them an introduction to the sport and to veteran participants willing to share their knowledge. It would also be a great teaching/learning opportunity for both the old/new shooters. What these new folks want is guidance, instruction, pointers, and the knowledge those with experience can lend. Being able to help these shooters walk up to that first stage 'knowing' their dope is on and being able to actually compete as a 'shooter' even if they're not aware of what Ballistic Coefficient, spin-drift, coriolis, and ogive refer to, would go a long way to bringing them along the road to, if not an active participant, being a fan and have an appreciation of everything that 'can' go into it.
These little 'stations' would be perfect for the 100-yard range. Setup as many chrono's as we have (I have TWO,... don't ask), set up some paper with a plethora of 1-inch dots on them at each station and an RO on duty to help each participant get zero'd, run say five rounds across a chrono, get an average velocity, input it into a solver, and fill out a sheet with yardages in 20-yard increments out to 550-yards,... BAM! They're ready to compete! It would be a great introduction to 'thinking' like a practical shooter and the equipment and a great intro to topics like MOA vs. MIL-RAD's, adjustment vs. hold-overs;... etc. The challenge would be 'fitting' such a service into the limited time we have on range,... but I think it could be done provided there are enough of us willing to help out... just a thought.
Ry
In the interest of opening up these contests to 'new' shooters, I think one of the most intimidating aspects of our contests is that the 'ol stalwart competitors have their dope sheets nailed (for the most part) and there is a real fear of embarrassment for a new shooter who doesn't have total confidence in their rig/load/dope to enter such a competition against guys/gals who can run a stage if given enough time. One thing I've always thought would be great at these contests is to offer the use of chrono's and ballistic software, i.e. our Android, iPhone, PocketPC apps, to help the newer shooters build confidence in their equipment. In addition to having a safety briefing before the contest, having 2,3,4 chrono's set up and attending, affable, patient, RO's helping new shooters walk through the steps of getting zero'd, finding their velocity, inputting the data into a ballistic solver, and generating a useful dope chart for the course of fire would be a real confidence boost for the new folks, and give them an introduction to the sport and to veteran participants willing to share their knowledge. It would also be a great teaching/learning opportunity for both the old/new shooters. What these new folks want is guidance, instruction, pointers, and the knowledge those with experience can lend. Being able to help these shooters walk up to that first stage 'knowing' their dope is on and being able to actually compete as a 'shooter' even if they're not aware of what Ballistic Coefficient, spin-drift, coriolis, and ogive refer to, would go a long way to bringing them along the road to, if not an active participant, being a fan and have an appreciation of everything that 'can' go into it.
These little 'stations' would be perfect for the 100-yard range. Setup as many chrono's as we have (I have TWO,... don't ask), set up some paper with a plethora of 1-inch dots on them at each station and an RO on duty to help each participant get zero'd, run say five rounds across a chrono, get an average velocity, input it into a solver, and fill out a sheet with yardages in 20-yard increments out to 550-yards,... BAM! They're ready to compete! It would be a great introduction to 'thinking' like a practical shooter and the equipment and a great intro to topics like MOA vs. MIL-RAD's, adjustment vs. hold-overs;... etc. The challenge would be 'fitting' such a service into the limited time we have on range,... but I think it could be done provided there are enough of us willing to help out... just a thought.
Ry
I agree with Ryan, If a new shooter doesn't have his dope and scope figured out its going to be a long hard day. The matches are already challenging enough remembering the COF and shooting from positions but if you don't know what your dope is everything else goes out the window.
We we're all new competitors at one time and none of the matches I went to by myself for the first times had stages set up to make it easier for the new guy and you know what ? I still had a blast ! It was the stepping stones to read and learn more about what I needed to understand to become a better competitor.
The thing that makes precision rifle so addicting even as a new shooter is that its not like anything else you've ever done before so when you get done at the end of a match you've learned a ton about what worked and what didn't and the majority of the new people I've talked to at matches even at UNSC is that they had a great time and it was a humbling but fun time and we usually see them back again the next time.
There's already 3 gun, F class, NRA high power.... matches set up for specific rifles so trying to incorporate everyone under one umbrella in a match probably isn't the best idea.
Stressing to a new shooter how important it is to have a good time, be safe and don't worry about your score or the time clock is probably the best thing we can offer, that and making sure that we as a group help them along to feel comfortable doing it.
Make it tough, make it challenging and make sure they have a good time, what more could anyone ask ?
We we're all new competitors at one time and none of the matches I went to by myself for the first times had stages set up to make it easier for the new guy and you know what ? I still had a blast ! It was the stepping stones to read and learn more about what I needed to understand to become a better competitor.
The thing that makes precision rifle so addicting even as a new shooter is that its not like anything else you've ever done before so when you get done at the end of a match you've learned a ton about what worked and what didn't and the majority of the new people I've talked to at matches even at UNSC is that they had a great time and it was a humbling but fun time and we usually see them back again the next time.
There's already 3 gun, F class, NRA high power.... matches set up for specific rifles so trying to incorporate everyone under one umbrella in a match probably isn't the best idea.
Stressing to a new shooter how important it is to have a good time, be safe and don't worry about your score or the time clock is probably the best thing we can offer, that and making sure that we as a group help them along to feel comfortable doing it.
Make it tough, make it challenging and make sure they have a good time, what more could anyone ask ?
Those are some great ideas. I also have a chrono I would be happy to volunteer to the cause. I also have a couple of ballistic programs to develop dope charts. The 100 yard range is for members only, but we could easily set up one or two chronos on the 175 yard range and help people out there.
We would need a club member to help out new shooters though, as non-members aren't allowed to just shoot on the ranges unless they are the guest of a member, or are shooting at a match. If our match is on the 550 range, that is the only place non-members could shoot, unless they were the guest of a member.
I'm willing to try new ideas, and also willing to toss out new ideas that don't work out. I think Blurry's comment about how most of the shooters come from this website is accurate. I would estimate that less than 20% of the shooters see it on the UNSC club calendar and come out to try it. I'm willing to try out new ideas, and also willing to toss out new ideas that don't work after we give them a try.
We would need a club member to help out new shooters though, as non-members aren't allowed to just shoot on the ranges unless they are the guest of a member, or are shooting at a match. If our match is on the 550 range, that is the only place non-members could shoot, unless they were the guest of a member.
I'm willing to try new ideas, and also willing to toss out new ideas that don't work out. I think Blurry's comment about how most of the shooters come from this website is accurate. I would estimate that less than 20% of the shooters see it on the UNSC club calendar and come out to try it. I'm willing to try out new ideas, and also willing to toss out new ideas that don't work after we give them a try.
I'm thinking about a match Feb 15-16 in vantage, but I need to see how many guys are interested. I know this match season is loaded. But it would give everyone trigger time before the JC match. Right now I have 10 people firm.
Chris
Chris
Put me down as a YES!!! Assuming I dont get called back to work before hand. I need to get some shooting in, been long over a year.
I may be off base here, but the way that I see it is a lot like autocrossing. When I was in high school, I had a pretty sweet station wagon. It handled like shit, but I liked driving it. I knew that one of the ways to improve was to get involved in autocross, which is basically driving around a parking lot or airstrip through a course of cones as fast as possible without hitting any. Besides maybe a panel van, an old subaru is one of the worst cars that one could choose to race. You know what? I still went out every month and raced my ass off. I was terrible. But I kept going out there. And I always placed poorly.
People who wanted to be competitive at autocrossing built cars that handled better, like miatas and corvettes. I wanted to drive my wagon, and didn't want to pay extra, so I made due and continued to come. I didn't complain that the cones were too close together or the corners too tight for my car's understeer. And they didn't make different courses for different types of cars. Cars were ranked in each class, but course itself remained the same.
Why not just use 5-10 targets and the same COF, then rank people by what rifle they're running?
In my experience, people who come up with excuses to not come out to shoot still will not come out when they've had special rules made for them.
Chris, I have to check to see if I'm in town or not but if you need an RO again, I'm in.
Unknown I don't see why another range would be needed to get dope.
Leave a target board up with cardboard and some 3" stickers at 100 yards and one at 300 yards, have the new shooter shoot through the chrono at both distances before the match and we can provide them with dope for the day...easy enough and wouldn't involve another range or doing anything different other than their shooting through the chrono at targets rather than at steel for their after orientation verification.
Leave a target board up with cardboard and some 3" stickers at 100 yards and one at 300 yards, have the new shooter shoot through the chrono at both distances before the match and we can provide them with dope for the day...easy enough and wouldn't involve another range or doing anything different other than their shooting through the chrono at targets rather than at steel for their after orientation verification.
Went shooting out in the hills with BGE541 and van462 today. Had some fun but mother nature didn't want to cooperate with us and decided to send in the fog not too long after we got set up. Wind was a killer with a steady 12mph where we were and gusting 20+ near the target. Even with the fog, rain, snow and freezing temperatures I was able to connect with the steel at 975 yards and now I have good dope out to that distance.
Driving out to the spot
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Getting stuck on the way out; took us about 30 minutes to get it out.
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This is where we set up. I didn't get any more pictures because I was freezing and wanted to get to shooting.
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Driving out to the spot
<a href="http://s191.photobucket.com/user/kevindittoe/media/20131220_094524_zps0f53c159.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/kevindittoe/20131220_094524_zps0f53c159.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131220_094524_zps0f53c159.jpg"/></a>
Getting stuck on the way out; took us about 30 minutes to get it out.
<a href="http://s191.photobucket.com/user/kevindittoe/media/20131220_104201_zps282863e6.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/kevindittoe/20131220_104201_zps282863e6.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131220_104201_zps282863e6.jpg"/></a>
This is where we set up. I didn't get any more pictures because I was freezing and wanted to get to shooting.
<a href="http://s191.photobucket.com/user/kevindittoe/media/20131220_115211_zpsc2ab0471.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/kevindittoe/20131220_115211_zpsc2ab0471.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20131220_115211_zpsc2ab0471.jpg"/></a>
Thanks BGE541 for the invite. It was still fun just to go into the Olympic Mtns. Many thanks for helping with target recovery, I would have likely donated it to the mountain until spring. Kevin good job on the hit.
Question for the forum,who makes a good set of gloves for shooting in 35 degree rain? When I switched out to my scuba gloves, I was able to get my wet hands warmed back up in a hurry. But I can't see trying to use them for much else.
Question for the forum,who makes a good set of gloves for shooting in 35 degree rain? When I switched out to my scuba gloves, I was able to get my wet hands warmed back up in a hurry. But I can't see trying to use them for much else.
I think this is spot on..Regardless of which rules are changed, shooters who are motivated will come, mall ninjas, or couch commandos will always find reasons not to come. I was thinking more about people who would like to shoot, but don't think their old Garand, or iron sighted FN would be able to work out.
Atone:
I must have misunderstood what the people recommending regarding the chrono data gathering they were talking about. I thought they were thinking about trying to gather chrono data just before the match, on the 550 range, and that won't work because we are doing the range set up, and trying to finalize the signup sheets, and organize the shooting order. Having people shooting while we are trying to do that would make that really difficult.
After the match might be possible, if they help clean off the range. It is usually the same great people who stay to help clean up, and many of the others who dash out before clean up, still dash out and leave the work to those who decide to stay and help. That is why I thought they were thinking about doing the chrono work at another range while we were getting the match ready to shoot.
If there were enough interested shooters, and helpers, we could consider giving up one of our range days to spend all that time helping people get their dope charts, rather than having a match. Doing this could be a great public relations move for our discipline. However, I suspect that we wouldn't get all that many people interested in this. This goes back to the people who want to go shoot (or gather data), and those who make excuses for not shooting (or gathering data).
But, I remain open to suggestions and ideas.
Unknown that's exactly what I was talking about, follow me for a moment.
Right now for every new shooter you have the mandatory orientation and safety meeting they have to attend before the match.
After that you usually make them shoot 2-3 rounds at steel from 2 positions to verify they know their dope, correct ?
Instead of firing those rounds at the steel to verify, they fire them at the target boards with a someone spotting to verify impacts... After the same 6 rounds are fired we now have chrono data and know their POI to help them with dope chart before the match.
Its not any different than what your doing now for a new shooter, your just having them aim through the chrono and at the target board instead of the steel.
Right now for every new shooter you have the mandatory orientation and safety meeting they have to attend before the match.
After that you usually make them shoot 2-3 rounds at steel from 2 positions to verify they know their dope, correct ?
Instead of firing those rounds at the steel to verify, they fire them at the target boards with a someone spotting to verify impacts... After the same 6 rounds are fired we now have chrono data and know their POI to help them with dope chart before the match.
Its not any different than what your doing now for a new shooter, your just having them aim through the chrono and at the target board instead of the steel.
AtOne,
The brief exercise after the orientation is to see if they know how to properly operate their weapon system, maintain muzzle control, follow instructions, use the safety, keep their trigger outside the trigger guard while not shooting, and/or figure out how to move with the chamber cleared, and move safely with the firearm. I don't think I can properly do that if they are only shooting from the bench. I realize it is a simple exercise, but much can be learned from watching that. It also shows me who to watch during their first match because they were not quite 100% with their muzzle control while moving. I'll talk with them after the orientation and let them know we will be watching for that during the match. Shooting from the bench won't let us see that.
I like the idea of helping people get their dope, but I think that Laurel hit the nail on the head with her comment about people who are motivated to shoot, or not shoot. I think the same idea applies to people wanting to get the dope for their rifles. 90% of the people who come out to the matches already have their dope. I think that us being friendly enough to help people get their dope is very good, and I think we should figure out how to do that for those who need the help. I'm just not keen on holding up the match for 2 or 3 people to generate the dope charts. That is why I would like to figure out a way to help them that doesn't hold up getting the match started.
The brief exercise after the orientation is to see if they know how to properly operate their weapon system, maintain muzzle control, follow instructions, use the safety, keep their trigger outside the trigger guard while not shooting, and/or figure out how to move with the chamber cleared, and move safely with the firearm. I don't think I can properly do that if they are only shooting from the bench. I realize it is a simple exercise, but much can be learned from watching that. It also shows me who to watch during their first match because they were not quite 100% with their muzzle control while moving. I'll talk with them after the orientation and let them know we will be watching for that during the match. Shooting from the bench won't let us see that.
I like the idea of helping people get their dope, but I think that Laurel hit the nail on the head with her comment about people who are motivated to shoot, or not shoot. I think the same idea applies to people wanting to get the dope for their rifles. 90% of the people who come out to the matches already have their dope. I think that us being friendly enough to help people get their dope is very good, and I think we should figure out how to do that for those who need the help. I'm just not keen on holding up the match for 2 or 3 people to generate the dope charts. That is why I would like to figure out a way to help them that doesn't hold up getting the match started.
Folks,
I'd like to tap the collective wisdom of the Puget Sound group to help me with an issue. I'm starting to pierce primers with 43.2grm H4350 and 139 Scenars. I'm using Lapua brass and CCI #200 primers. Suspecting carbon and copper fouling, I cleaned the bore thoroughly. I threw everything I had at it including Sweets 7.62, Butch's Bore Shine, while using a bronze brush.
After my cleaning I got another pierced primer after 15 shots. The primers are not getting flattened out which leaves me scratching my head.
Until I can get my hands on a bore scope to see exactly what's going on (maybe I'm not getting everything out of the barrel), I'm going to drop down an accuracy node to 42gr of H4350.
Now some folks are saying that AI rifles have a reputation for primer piercing. I measured the firing pin diameter and firing pin hole and it's .003 larger than a Remington 700. Could that account for the pierced primers?
Thanks,
Ed
I'd like to tap the collective wisdom of the Puget Sound group to help me with an issue. I'm starting to pierce primers with 43.2grm H4350 and 139 Scenars. I'm using Lapua brass and CCI #200 primers. Suspecting carbon and copper fouling, I cleaned the bore thoroughly. I threw everything I had at it including Sweets 7.62, Butch's Bore Shine, while using a bronze brush.
After my cleaning I got another pierced primer after 15 shots. The primers are not getting flattened out which leaves me scratching my head.
Until I can get my hands on a bore scope to see exactly what's going on (maybe I'm not getting everything out of the barrel), I'm going to drop down an accuracy node to 42gr of H4350.
Now some folks are saying that AI rifles have a reputation for primer piercing. I measured the firing pin diameter and firing pin hole and it's .003 larger than a Remington 700. Could that account for the pierced primers?
Thanks,
Ed
Maybe the CCI primers are soft... I can hook you up with some Federal primers next time I see you and you can try those. Let me know.
