Member Link Up Puget Sound Area Shooter's Group

[Laurel]

Hi Guys! Unknown - thanks for putting on the match! It was a ton of fun! I hope we can make them more often. Some of the guys were discussing spreading the word about matches, practice, and safe gun handling online, so I figured I'd give you guys a link to a blog post that I wrote about prepping for matches and the general rundown of how ones I've been to have functioned. Inside, I've linked to another post I've made that's about how I got into precision shooting and guns.

Home in Disarray: Prepping for and shooting a long range rifle match

 

[Known]

Hi Guys! Unknown - thanks for putting on the match! It was a ton of fun! I hope we can make them more often. Some of the guys were discussing spreading the word about matches, practice, and safe gun handling online, so I figured I'd give you guys a link to a blog post that I wrote about prepping for matches and the general rundown of how ones I've been to have functioned. Inside, I've linked to another post I've made that's about how I got into precision shooting and guns.

Home in Disarray: Prepping for and shooting a long range rifle match

Excellent article! I will share with my wife and hopefully convince her to start shooting with me. I noticed that you too are left handed - we must stick together.

 

[AtOne]

Great article Laurel, was going to give you crap about not having hand wipes on your list but low and behold there they we're

Excellent match today plenty challenging and filled with fantastic people to spend the day with !
Enjoy the pics and be sure to hit full screen tab.

!UNSC Field precision shooting match. July, 2013 - YouTube

 

[Laurel]

Great article Laurel, was going to give you crap about not having hand wipes on your list but low and behold there they we're

hahahaha, yes. I love my handywipes! More so during dustier matches, but it's always good to clean your hands off after a few hours of handling magazines and brass.

 

[Unknown]

AtOne,
Great photos....again. I always enjoy your photos.
Thanks for picking up the doghouse...my guess is that it will show up in a stage at the August match.

Laurel,
Nice write up. Maybe it will help get more women involved. I am also a list maker..my problems are when I forget to put an item on the list, or when I see an item on the list and wonder "why did I put that on the list?"

Nice meeting the three of you. Hope you can make it again.

Match results out later today.

 

[*Nine]

Thanks to Unknown and Kevin for hosting the match. I had a great time and look forward to coming out next time.

 

[KevinD]

I want to thank all of the shooters that came out and competed yesterday, these matches run smoothly because of you. I hope that everyone had a good time and plans on coming back and shooting with us again. We had a very diverse field of shooters, from first timers to veteran competitors, but the most important thing is that everyone knew what they were doing and performed in a safe manner throughout the match.

Here are the final scores from the match, they are broken down by either bolt gun or semi-auto.

BOLT GUNS:
#1 - AtOne - 63 points
#2 - Craig C. - 59 points
#3 - RBros - 51 points - 334.71 seconds
#4 - Reed W. - 51 points - 354.34 seconds
#5 - KevinD - 49 points
#6 - Mike W. - 45 points - time not recorded for stage 3
#6 - blurry6 - 45 points - 328.56 seconds
#7 - Ed M. - 43 points
#8 - Russ H. - 38 points
#9 - Luarel - 36 points
#10 - silverbullet2-33 points
#11 - Joe W. - 22 points
#12 - Joe C. - 16 points

SEMI-AUTO
#1 - Scott S. - 56 points
#2 - Steve M. - 55 points
#3 - Unknown - 37 points
#4 - Jason H. - 8 points

I do welcome feedback, if any of the competitors have any recommendations on how to better the matches let me know.

 

[Unknown]

So if I was shooting a semi-auto and got 37 points, and Russ was shooting a bolt gun and got 38 points, does he really have to be my new nemesis, or arch-enemy? I always kinda liked him, and thought he was a great guy. I have shot semi-autos for the last couple of matches. Maybe I'll try a bolt gun next time and see if I can close the gap some. Of course some Practice sure wouldn't hurt me any.

 

[BGE541]

So if I was shooting a semi-auto and got 37 points, and Russ was shooting a bolt gun and got 38 points, does he really have to be my new nemesis, or arch-enemy? I always kinda liked him, and thought he was a great guy. I have shot semi-autos for the last couple of matches. Maybe I'll try a bolt gun next time and see if I can close the gap some. Of course some Practice sure wouldn't hurt me any.

We need to handi-cap these semi-autos... Wait... Maybe the Semi-auto rifle is already the handi-cap for the shooter.

Nevermind lol

 

[AtOne]

Saw Russ at the range tonight and he got a big kick out of that Unknown ! He said he'd make sure to forget to close his bolt again for you at the next match

So if I was shooting a semi-auto and got 37 points, and Russ was shooting a bolt gun and got 38 points, does he really have to be my new nemesis, or arch-enemy? I always kinda liked him, and thought he was a great guy. I have shot semi-autos for the last couple of matches. Maybe I'll try a bolt gun next time and see if I can close the gap some. Of course some Practice sure wouldn't hurt me any.

 

[Unknown]

Although I would like to blame my semi-auto rifle for my performance, I will be willing to admit that my score was more the result of a lack of practice than an equipment issue.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'll be certain to cuss and blame the equipment whenever it is reasonable, but that wasn't the case at the match last Saturday. I don't want to be "that guy" who says stuff like "I would have come in "X" place in the match if only my sling hadn't been the wrong color", or some other lame excuse when everyone there knows it was simply a marksmanship issue.

 

[BGE541]

These videos are cool... I think the UNSC Match should have a rule where if you need to zero your gun the morning of AT the range, you automatically add 20 seconds too your shooting time lol To help these "ties" of course.

 

[-Nick-]

Bolts are for sissies...

 

[AtOne]

To put things in perspective on this last match, it was about perfect for difficulty level with the top shooters being in the lower 70% and high 60% hit range and most of the lower scored shooters being around the mid 20 % percent range. If there we're a few more targets from prone I'm sure those numbers would of gone up to a high 70's with lows in the 30's which would be about a perfect mix.

The previous months match the top top shooters were above the 90% hit range, so it was a bit easier COF, probably ranging on too easy.

The goal at the end of the matches is to push everyone's limits a little so that we all learn something from it, placing well is great but being able to overcome obstacles on stages and work out how to shoot efficiently really is the most important thing for each of us to learn. Remember its for fun and knowledge and if you learned what works and what didn't when the match is over it was a good day because now you have one more tool in your bag and know what you need to work on for next time

 

[*Nine]

To put things in perspective on this last match, it was about perfect for difficulty level with the top shooters being in the lower 70% and high 60% hit range and most of the lower scored shooters being around the mid 20 % percent range. If there we're a few more targets from prone I'm sure those numbers would of gone up to a high 70's with lows in the 30's which would be about a perfect mix.

The previous months match the top top shooters were above the 90% hit range, so it was a bit easier COF, probably ranging on too easy.

The goal at the end of the matches is to push everyone's limits a little so that we all learn something from it, placing well is great but being able to overcome obstacles on stages and work out how to shoot efficiently really is the most important thing for each of us to learn. Remember its for fun and knowledge and if you learned what works and what didn't when the match is over it was a good day because now you have one more tool in your bag and know what you need to work on for next time

I agree. Obviously you don't want a match to be too easy, but it's also important to keep it from being too hard since nobody likes going to a match and shooting 10%. I think the top shooters being around 70% is just right.

 

[-Nick-]

....nobody likes going to a match and shooting 10%.

Why am I having PTSD after reading that? Lol... Nevermind... It's just déjà vu
[h=1][/h]

 

[Unknown]

What would shooters think if 6 possible courses of fire were suggested far enough for people to review and think about them, then input from the shooters was used to pick the 4 stages that we would actually use at the match?

 

[*Nine]

What would shooters think if 6 possible courses of fire were suggested far enough for people to review and think about them, then input from the shooters was used to pick the 4 stages that we would actually use at the match?

Having been involved in USPSA match administration I would advise against trying to MD-by-committee. You'll never reach a consensus.

 

[Known]

To put things in perspective on this last match, it was about perfect for difficulty level with the top shooters being in the lower 70% and high 60% hit range and most of the lower scored shooters being around the mid 20 % percent range. If there we're a few more targets from prone I'm sure those numbers would of gone up to a high 70's with lows in the 30's which would be about a perfect mix.

Overall I agree. So participants (particularly the newer shooters) get the most out of the match I would like to suggest a 10 minute clinic at the beginning. The session could cover a particular technique along with some Q&A. If folks are shy about stepping up, the instructors/moderators could be the top two shooters from the previous match (all voluntary of course).

My suggestion is based on my experience at the last match. I learned more at the end of the match when I was able to drag out the parapet and play around with it. I received some coaching from a couple of our top shooters and I'm very appreciative for that. We have some very good shooters so I'm just thinking of a way that everybody could benefit, particularly our newer shooters.

On the other hand, I've never seen anything like this at a match. I look at it two ways: 1) Either it's not practical or 2) we have an opportunity to innovate. Given the informal nature of our program I believe we have the opportunity to do something really cool.

Thoughts?

 

[AtOne]

Its kind of a double edged sword trying to teach someone at a match, If you've ever golfed and listened to someone critique a person while on the course usually it just screws with their head even more and doesn't make it any better as their focused on the one thing and forget about the other 20 little things that make the shot go where its supposed to.
There's quite a bit that goes on before during and after the trigger is pulled and what works for one shooter doesn't always work for another.

A Q&A afterwards would work that way they can take that knowledge and work on it for next month. But the best thing for anyone to do on a regular basis is practice, practice, practice.
Dry firing from positions at home using chairs, sawhorses, tables....you name it as long as it gets you out of a comfortable position and focused on your reticle to see if when the shot broke you we're on target or not is really the best advice I can give, short of either signing up for the SnipersHide online training or even paying for classes from qualified instructors.

If a person doesn't put in the time before a match to practice what works for them, whether its on the range or dry firing then they can't expect to improve on their scores when they get to the next match. I can tell you this, I've personally put more dry fire rounds in positional shooting practice than I have at all the matches I've been in combined and I still have plenty to work on and overcome myself.

Overall I agree. So participants (particularly the newer shooters) get the most out of the match I would like to suggest a 10 minute clinic at the beginning. The session could cover a particular technique along with some Q&A. If folks are shy about stepping up, the instructors/moderators could be the top two shooters from the previous match (all voluntary of course).

My suggestion is based on my experience at the last match. I learned more at the end of the match when I was able to drag out the parapet and play around with it. I received some coaching from a couple of our top shooters and I'm very appreciative for that. We have some very good shooters so I'm just thinking of a way that everybody could benefit, particularly our newer shooters.

On the other hand, I've never seen anything like this at a match. I look at it two ways: 1) Either it's not practical or 2) we have an opportunity to innovate. Given the informal nature of our program I believe we have the opportunity to do something really cool.

Thoughts?

 

[Pat M]

That's i nice thing about a team match, you both figure wind speed, one is ranging stuff & other is making dope sheet & mapping targets, telling your buddy to get his barrel off the wood, telling each other to zero your turrets, spotting where your round missed / bugger when it was a hair off one of the sides , our spotting his hit 8 feet low "check your turret", "slow down, you got time", "hurry up yer running out of time", "wrong target!".................

 

[Known]

Its kind of a double edged sword trying to teach someone at a match, If you've ever golfed and listened to someone critique a person while on the course usually it just screws with their head even more and doesn't make it any better as their focused on the one thing and forget about the other 20 little things that make the shot go where its supposed to.
There's quite a bit that goes on before during and after the trigger is pulled and what works for one shooter doesn't always work for another.

A Q&A afterwards would work that way they can take that knowledge and work on it for next month. But the best thing for anyone to do on a regular basis is practice, practice, practice.
Dry firing from positions at home using chairs, sawhorses, tables....you name it as long as it gets you out of a comfortable position and focused on your reticle to see if when the shot broke you we're on target or not is really the best advice I can give, short of either signing up for the SnipersHide online training or even paying for classes from qualified instructors.

If a person doesn't put in the time before a match to practice what works for them, whether its on the range or dry firing then they can't expect to improve on their scores when they get to the next match. I can tell you this, I've personally put more dry fire rounds in positional shooting practice than I have at all the matches I've been in combined and I still have plenty to work on and overcome myself.

I understand where you are coming from. Just the fact that we have that time after the match might be good enough, and considering how approachable everybody is there will be no shortage of advice.

I did sign up for the SH online training about two years ago - it's quite good. Some techniques are easy to learn in an online context but there are others that require in person coaching.

I spent a good part of Sunday afternoon dry firing from just about anything that resembled a barricade. Play structures are quite good for that sort of thing.

 

[Spot-on]

It would be cool to develop a sort of "training camp". But I agree that the middle of a match is not the best training experience, although certainly people learn from that. More efficient perhaps is a separate day at the range for training/practice. Without trying to be competitive you can just focus on improving yourself that much more.

I know something I could use is a fairly regular dope-confirmation day. Having targets set every 50 yards out to the maximum the range has to offer. I play with and change out my equipment and loads so much that getting the dope set one week doesn't mean it will be the same the next week. Setting up and tearing down that many targets just for myself is pretty inefficient -- many hands would make that work alot shorter and then everyone could shoot on the targets and get dope for their own kit.

 

[-Nick-]

"slow down, you got time"

Hmmm.... lol

 

[-Nick-]

It would be cool to develop a sort of "training camp". But I agree that the middle of a match is not the best training experience, although certainly people learn from that. More efficient perhaps is a separate day at the range for training/practice. Without trying to be competitive you can just focus on improving yourself that much more.

I know something I could use is a fairly regular dope-confirmation day. Having targets set every 50 yards out to the maximum the range has to offer. I play with and change out my equipment and loads so much that getting the dope set one week doesn't mean it will be the same the next week. Setting up and tearing down that many targets just for myself is pretty inefficient -- many hands would make that work alot shorter and then everyone could shoot on the targets and get dope for their own kit.

You only need dope at 200, 300, 400 and the 545 line to get enough info in order to play with the ballistics program and get reliable info out to 800. When Scott showed me this method I literally didn't need my chrony anymore and when I've shown it to numerous others they've had great success since.

 

[Known]

You only need dope at 200, 300, 400 and the 545 line to get enough info in order to play with the ballistics program and get reliable info out to 800. When Scott showed me this method I literally didn't need my chrony anymore and when I've shown it to numerous others they've had great success since.

Details por favor?

 

[-Nick-]

Details por favor?

Basically you input a rough known estimate of FPS for whatever cartridge you're using to get some estimated dope. Then set up shoot-n-see's at 200, 300, 400, and 545. Zero at 100, then dial the estimate for 200. Send a round down and see where it hits. If your low then come up, high come down, and when you're on center send a confirmation shot and write down the dope. Repeat out to the 545 line. Now that you have 4 known dope points play around with the FPS in a ballistics program (or use the muzzle velocity tool in Shooter program) until your dope and the dope given matches. You'll be within +/-10fps and good to out to 800+ when BC really starts to change and you'll want to get real dope by shooting.

 

[Known]

Basically you input a rough known estimate of FPS for whatever cartridge you're using to get some estimated dope. Then set up shoot-n-see's at 200, 300, 400, and 545. Zero at 100, then dial the estimate for 200. Send a round down and see where it hits. If your low then come up, high come down, and when you're on center send a confirmation shot and write down the dope. Repeat out to the 545 line. Now that you have 4 known dope points play around with the FPS in a ballistics program (or use the muzzle velocity tool in Shooter program) until your dope and the dope given matches. You'll be within +/-10fps and good to out to 800+ when BC really starts to change and you'll want to get real dope by shooting.

I was also advised to set my zero to the maximum point blank range. As a result, any target is just a little above and below the zero. Makes sense but I need to figure out how to properly execute. Not sure if one could still use their zero stop as you'd be going below your zero for closer targets.

So much to learn...

 

[-Nick-]

I was also advised to set my zero to the maximum point blank range. As a result, any target is just a little above and below the zero. Makes sense but I need to figure out how to properly execute. Not sure if one could still use their zero stop as you'd be going below your zero for closer targets.

So much to learn...

Your zero should be 100 yards. There are a few who do a 400 yard zero and hold under and over, but I don't recommend it unless you really know what you're doing and have a reticle designed for such. And when I set a zero stop I always set it -.5 mils from zero so I can always dial back for under 100 or if the weather has changed radically.

 

[DIBBS]

Let's not discuss resetting turrets after a stage...lest I start having flashbacks and have to break out the crying towel..

 

[Bigwheels]

I don't mind coaching/instructing people @ my Acme spot. So if it's something you'd be interested in, let me know.

 

[Known]

I don't mind coaching/instructing people @ my Acme spot. So if it's something you'd be interested in, let me know.

Count me in. I was there last Wednesday with Flashfire. Afterwards I will treat you to the finest cuisine to be had in Acme at the Acme Diner. Actually, it's pretty good.

 

[65guys_steve]

I can vouch for the Acme Diner, I was pleasantly surprised. Last week I had the best Turkey sandwich I ever ate.

 

[JC Steel]

Good video Eric,

Couple of things,

-good to see you out there scott!! now you need to come over here again to fart around
-Who in the world is that shooting a left handed AI??
-Travis, I see you went to S&B, nice choice, you liking it?


And next Match, JC Steel Targets will donate to your prize table.

 

[BGE541]

It seems that one common dissipline I observe fading away is consistency. Quite often I hear "yeah I went up or down a half a grain in my match load" or went from a 100y zero to 232y zero and going to hold" I am not saying that their is one right or wrong way, sometimes personnally I dial and sometime I hold but you can quickly complicate things when holds/loads/data methods are changing match to match.



Yes, holding can save time but if you haven't honed those skills then for all intensive purposes it has zero benefit over dialing. That being said I have seen some guys shoot smaller groups at 500y holding then dialing because they aren't thinking about it so much. I have to somewhat agree with Nick I think with good dope and a simple plan of attack you can't go wrong until you decide just what works for you.

I personally really like the matches and the crowd it draws its a top notch group.

 

[Known]

-Who in the world is that shooting a left handed AI??

That's me - got it in early May. Yes - the rifle is better looking than I am.

 

[Known]

And when I set a zero stop I always set it -.5 mils from zero so I can always dial back for under 100 or if the weather has changed radically.

Such a simple and elegant solution. Thanks for the input.

 

[RBros]

Good video Eric,

Couple of things,

-good to see you out there scott!! now you need to come over here again to fart around
-Who in the world is that shooting a left handed AI??
-Travis, I see you went to S&B, nice choice, you liking it?


And next Match, JC Steel Targets will donate to your prize table.

Jake,
I have been running the S&B all this season. I like it alot. I will still keep my NF's on my hunting rifles, but for my comp guns, its perfect.

 

[Unknown]

Holding over or under and using a reticle to shoot with, rather than dialing elevation requires many things. Most importantly among them is proper scope mounting. If you have the smallest amount of cant in your scope, it won't work. Then you have to know exactly where the marks on your reticle intersect the bullet's line of flight. Whether you dial, or use the reticle, you have to know the elevation.

I find that for many applications, using the reticle is faster. BUT I still have to refer to the chart to see which mark in the reticle to put where. It only eliminates dialing, but it substitutes counting down to the proper hash mark for dialing. If there is alot of counting going on to find the right elevation hash mark, there isn't a significant speed advantage because of the time spent making sure you are on hash mark #7 rather than 5. Finding the center of the reticle is VERY fast...

Here is sort of how I do it using the Leupold Mk4 TMR reticle. There are hash marks at each mil, and half mil.

for example, if:
crosshair =100
bar 1 =186 half
BAR 2 =253 FULL MIL
bar 3 =362 half
BAR 4 =438 FULL MIL
bar 5 =497 half
BAR 6 =547 FULL MIL

with targets at the following distances, the hold is:
100 crosshair
200 bar 1 a bit hi
315 bar 2 at the bottom
378 bar 3 on the top
424 bar 4 half way to bottom of target
487 bar 5 just below center
500 bar 5 just above center
535 bar 6 just below center

I use the exbal program, and it has many of the most common reticles, and the program interfaces with other data I input to give me the impact points for various reticles. But like I said above, some times dialing is faster than searching your reticle for the precise hash mark to use.

 

[*Nine]

...And when I set a zero stop I always set it -.5 mils from zero so I can always dial back for under 100 or if the weather has changed radically.

Just a note: assuming you're zeroed at 100 you'll be dialing up for distances under 100.

 

[-Nick-]

Just a note: assuming you're zeroed at 100 you'll be dialing up for distances under 100.

Dammit Craig don't go making sense... Lol... I use it more or less for re-adjusting my zero if needed.

 

[-Nick-]

Holding over or under and using a reticle to shoot with, rather than dialing elevation requires many things. Most importantly among them is proper scope mounting. If you have the smallest amount of cant in your scope, it won't work. Then you have to know exactly where the marks on your reticle intersect the bullet's line of flight. Whether you dial, or use the reticle, you have to know the elevation.

I find that for many applications, using the reticle is faster. BUT I still have to refer to the chart to see which mark in the reticle to put where. It only eliminates dialing, but it substitutes counting down to the proper hash mark for dialing. If there is alot of counting going on to find the right elevation hash mark, there isn't a significant speed advantage because of the time spent making sure you are on hash mark #7 rather than 5. Finding the center of the reticle is VERY fast...

Here is sort of how I do it using the Leupold Mk4 TMR reticle. There are hash marks at each mil, and half mil.

for example, if:
crosshair =100
bar 1 =186 half
BAR 2 =253 FULL MIL
bar 3 =362 half
BAR 4 =438 FULL MIL
bar 5 =497 half
BAR 6 =547 FULL MIL

with targets at the following distances, the hold is:
100 crosshair
200 bar 1 a bit hi
315 bar 2 at the bottom
378 bar 3 on the top
424 bar 4 half way to bottom of target
487 bar 5 just below center
500 bar 5 just above center
535 bar 6 just below center

I use the exbal program, and it has many of the most common reticles, and the program interfaces with other data I input to give me the impact points for various reticles. But like I said above, some times dialing is faster than searching your reticle for the precise hash mark to use.

You're over complicating it. Most have dope sheets. Simply look at your dope sheet for the desired distance, say 200yds is .5mil, then hold over .5mil in your reticle. You shouldn't be canted even if you're dialing because it can still throw your shot. Most targets used are 2-3 MOA which give you a decent margin of error under 300-400 yards. Is dialing better, sure. Under time restraints can holding over be effective, yup. But memorizing your reticle for every single hash line distance isn't necessary since we have tools like dope cards, programs, etc to use and the targets are not UKD.

 

[Pat M]

Here is some .308 under 100yd info (practiced Sunday for Oregon Sniper Challenge)

70yd - +1 (1/4 clicks) (all up)
60yd - +2
50yd - +3
40yd - +7
30yd - +11
20yd - +20
10yd - +60

 

[-Nick-]

Here is some .308 under 100yd info (practiced Sunday for Oregon Sniper Challenge)

70yd - +1 (1/4 clicks) (all up)
60yd - +2
50yd - +3
40yd - +7
30yd - +11
20yd - +20
10yd - +60

I'm afraid to ask what you guys were shooting at 10yds Pat lol...

 

[Bigwheels]

Why would you need to dial for ranges under 100 yds? Just pull the pistol, & hit it!

 

[-Nick-]

Why would you need to dial for ranges under 100 yds? Just pull the pistol, & hit it!

There are very few here that I think could hit a 2-3 MOA target and 25yrds none the less 75yrds with a pistol.

 

[71firebird400]

Hi guys,

There doesn't happen to be anyone up in Whatcom County with a KRG Whiskey 3 chassis; does there? I'm in Bellingham and would love to get behind one prior to ordering. Glad to meet up at any local range or wherever we won't get the cops called on us for shouldering a rifle. No need to shoot the thing; just want to see if the ergo's work out for me. Please PM me if you have one and are willing to help out!

 

[Bigwheels]

There are very few here that I think could hit a 2-3 MOA target and 25yrds none the less 75yrds with a pistol.

OK. That would be a challenging shot with a pistol, but I really don't see any need for that kind of shooting with my precision LONG RANGE rifle. Besides, when I hit it, I'd time out before it stopped spinning.... Assuming it didn't fly off on its own!

 

[-Nick-]

Hi guys,

There doesn't happen to be anyone up in Whatcom County with a KRG Whiskey 3 chassis; does there? I'm in Bellingham and would love to get behind one prior to ordering. Glad to meet up at any local range or wherever we won't get the cops called on us for shouldering a rifle. No need to shoot the thing; just want to see if the ergo's work out for me. Please PM me if you have one and are willing to help out!

Nine!'s dad has one and if you're willing to drive south a ways they might be willing to meet-up with you. Shoot him a PM.

 

[*Nine]

Hi guys,

There doesn't happen to be anyone up in Whatcom County with a KRG Whiskey 3 chassis; does there? I'm in Bellingham and would love to get behind one prior to ordering. Glad to meet up at any local range or wherever we won't get the cops called on us for shouldering a rifle. No need to shoot the thing; just want to see if the ergo's work out for me. Please PM me if you have one and are willing to help out!

Nine!'s dad has one and if you're willing to drive south a ways they might be willing to meet-up with you. Shoot him a PM.

Indeed. He lives in Snohomish. Also, I plan to be up that way this saturday for a little while. Perhaps we could meet up in the afternoon (I don't know precisely what time I'd be free) and you could check it out.