Pictures of the ammo show it was counterfeit. Some kind of homemade projectile copy and god knows what powder. The real ammo is extremely expensive, and some gun show grifter got the better of him and should be in prison. Serbu just happened to be the unlucky gun chosen.
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Safety Warning for Berger 77 grain OTM: Pressure Testing Update
- Thread starter Molon
- Start date
Never saw anything like that before in my life!!!This is a safety warning pertaining to Berger’s factory loaded ammunition.
Berger 223 Remington
77 grain OTM Tactical
Part # 65-23030
Lot # P002745-1
While firing this ammunition from one of my Krieger barreled, semi-automatic, precision AR-15s, I experienced an uncharacteristic amount of recoil and muzzle blast. This occurred with the second round fired from the magazine and there were two bullet holes in the target, so there was no type of bore obstruction involved. (This AR-15 has functioned flawlessly for over one thousand rounds and has produced ½ MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards.)
The action failed to cycle after firing this second round from the magazine and the trigger was dead. No amount pulling/pounding on the charging handle was able to free-up the bolt carrier group. As stated above, there were two bullet holes in the target so there was no type of bore instruction involved.
At home, I had to use a mallet and a Delrin rod to pound the bolt, carrier and case out of the barrel extension/upper receiver. Prior to pounding out the bolt carrier group, I took a quick look in the bore with a cheap borescope. It was clearly visible that the brass case (Lapua) was still tightly sealed to the walls of the chamber.
Upon examining the spent case, it was clearly visible that the primer pocket was greatly expanded and there was a large amount ejector and extractor brass-flow. The primer fell out of the bolt face when the case was removed with the pounding-out of the bolt carrier group.
The was a large “belt” of expanded brass just above the extractor groove. This belt had a diameter of 0.414” at the at the broadest section. The case was split on either side of the extractor brass flow. The case rim was split at the ejector brass flow.
I have not yet conducted a damage assessment of my AR15. A link to this thread has been sent to Berger and I’ll post their reply when I receive it. Until such time, I urge anyone who has also purchased this ammunition not to use it.
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Using a bullet pulled from this lot of ammunition, the cartridge overall length was 2.322" with this bullet seated to the lands of this barrel.
No.
No.
Negative.
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I know there are a lot of experts on here, I'm not one of them, but I wanted to share my personal experience with .223 Lapua brass. I run a handloaded .223 bolt action trainer with 82 grain Bergers (Now 85.5 gr). The first time I took it to the range I had a casing and the bolt get stuck. One of the "experts" I was with grabbed his power drill and "tapped" on the bolt handle with the butt of the drill to try to get it free (Brilliant!). That ended up splitting the bolt shroud and my rifle was done before it even started...My friends who continued running the .223 trainers for PRS experienced this same problem with Lapua brass. The feedback I received was the brass was too soft and too thin. They all switched over to Lake City for that caliber. Lapua brass is money for every other caliber I've tried, but perhaps their .223 needs improvement. I have 6.5X47 Lapua brass I've reloaded 10+ times but my buddies were only able to get 3-4 reloads per piece of .223 brass before the primer pockets stretched out.
Yeah I have some of that lot too. It's all been completely fine in my 223 Wylde. Bolt gun. Both lots 1 and 3
I have the very same experience about 5 months ago with my ar15 9mm carbine during a USPSA/IPSC match. It looks almost Identical.. It even blew my magazine out and on the ground.;Im glad you were not seriously hurt.Thanks for the Heads Up on the ammo..My ammo was Monarch Brass Cased 9mm box of 50.
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The Krieger barrel that this incident occurred with has a true 223 Remington chamber.
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Hmmmm. Of course, the ammo is 223 Rem ammo. It isn't. "223wylde". So that's not an excuse, but Id think that figures into it. What do you think?
Yeah. Had to be 80+ though or at least more than 65 to do what it did though... wonder if a difference in the chamber free bore effected it ?
Aren't those bullets seated long or something?
Of course 223 ammo should be safe for a 223 chamber, period.
This Berger factory loaded ammunition is loaded to magazine length. The longest rounds that I sampled are 2.262"; that's a jump of approximately 0.060" to the lands in this Krieger barrel.
I thought I remembered something about it being a little different but I couldn't remember what it was.
That’s not going to do it, and shouldn’t cause any issues in the vast majority of 223 rifles. Certainly nothing to this extent.
The blown case has a weight of 99.0 grains. The neck diameter of this case is 0.254”. The diameter of the “belt” above the extractor groove is 0.414” at the broadest section.
The diameter of the case rim across the extractor and ejector brass flow is 0.423” and the diameter of the case rim rotated to 90 degrees of that position is 0.382”. The primer pocket has a diameter of approximately 0.222” at the broadest section.
I pulled-down 20 of the unfired cartridges from this lot of ammunition. Here’s the compiled data.
You can down-load a larger view of the above data sheet here. (or just click on the pic above.)
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Wow. Thats an absolutely impressive compilation sir.
I'm pretty surprised at some of the data honestly. That ammo has shot so well and been so consistent in my gun, I'm a little surprised at that info. Not sure what to say about this honestly, but I've seen some of your posts before, so I was kind of wondering if you were going to dive into this.
I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of the data.
I'm pretty surprised at some of the data honestly. That ammo has shot so well and been so consistent in my gun, I'm a little surprised at that info. Not sure what to say about this honestly, but I've seen some of your posts before, so I was kind of wondering if you were going to dive into this.
I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of the data.
The spread in those charges is...wow...shitty. 1.5gr extra of H4895 is almost 12,000 PSI difference. Remind me to never buy Berger .223 ammo...
And people make fun of my +/- 0.1g equipment.
Supprised they have not published a recoll on that lott.
Supprised they have not published a recoll on that lott.
You think that's bad? lol... others are much worse. Every company can slip up.. still shoot Berger ammo any day over a lot of other stuff.
Has Berger disclosed to you what powder they're using in these loads?
The blown case has a weight of 99.0 grains. The neck diameter of this case is 0.254”. The diameter of the “belt” above the extractor groove is 0.414” at the broadest section.
The diameter of the case rim across the extractor and ejector brass flow is 0.423” and the diameter of the case rim rotated to 90 degrees of that position is 0.382”. The primer pocket has a diameter of approximately 0.222” at the broadest section.
I pulled-down 20 of the unfired cartridges from this lot of ammunition. Here’s the compiled data.
You can down-load a larger view of the above data sheet here. (or just click on the pic above.)
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I went back through my brass box for .223/5.56 cases and looked at a couple handfulls of cases. None were Bergers. But, none of them showed pressure signs like this one.
YUP! ive Been reading his post for years and I have learned a lot from him on ammo and ARs
I pulled-down 20 of the unfired cartridges from this lot of ammunition. Here’s the compiled data.
Those charge weights would indicate to me that powder used was closer to N530 or N-135.
That's well over my pay grade but could you speculate as to the pressure increase or total pressure that would result or provide any insight into what kind of pressure could be possible with say "the max charge that OP found 23.3" with those powders?
Means you are working with a powder that with a heavier bullet is going to be more peaky, more sensitive and with powder charge varying that much, can get you into a high(er) pressure situation.
Krieger bbls then do run tight on land and groove diameters, not crazy tighter but tighter. That bumps up pressure.
Shorter freebore chamber (223 vs Wylde vs NATO), tighter barrel, powder charge variation on high side, add that maybe round sat in chamber for a longer period of time....all adds up to pressure increase. Maybe a case that was a bit softer than should be due to a process error or ???.
Pressure isn't linear, especially on higher side of curve. Gets even more interesting if running a double base powder and running it on high side of pressure.
I prefer single base, extruded powders but see appeal to double base. Sometimes the only way to get "there" is to run a double base. One just has to keep in mind that it isn't good to push double base hard, then use that same ammo when 30-40 degrees warmer.
Name of precision (ammo, optics, shooting, etc) is to have it be the same each time, when precision isn't there, "interesting" things can happen.
Pressure wise, that's really hard to guesstimate as it would depend heavily upon where you are on curve for the average charge.
Depends on what barrel and chamber the ammo was tested / developed in also. Lotta variables to account for to be able to say much of anything useful.
Powder charge variation is bad. Powder charge variation with faster burn rate powder, combined with bullet that is "heavy" for cartridge is even worse.
Internal ballistics - it'll give you a headache, one way or another.
Krieger bbls then do run tight on land and groove diameters, not crazy tighter but tighter. That bumps up pressure.
Shorter freebore chamber (223 vs Wylde vs NATO), tighter barrel, powder charge variation on high side, add that maybe round sat in chamber for a longer period of time....all adds up to pressure increase. Maybe a case that was a bit softer than should be due to a process error or ???.
Pressure isn't linear, especially on higher side of curve. Gets even more interesting if running a double base powder and running it on high side of pressure.
I prefer single base, extruded powders but see appeal to double base. Sometimes the only way to get "there" is to run a double base. One just has to keep in mind that it isn't good to push double base hard, then use that same ammo when 30-40 degrees warmer.
| Case # | Charge weight - grains | Abs Deviation - grains |
| 7 | 21.8 | 0.555 |
| 4 | 21.9 | 0.455 |
| 6 | 21.9 | 0.455 |
| 10 | 21.9 | 0.455 |
| 8 | 22 | 0.355 |
| 9 | 22 | 0.355 |
| 5 | 22.2 | 0.155 |
| 3 | 22.3 | 0.055 |
| 13 | 22.3 | 0.055 |
| 18 | 22.4 | 0.045 |
| 15 | 22.5 | 0.145 |
| 17 | 22.5 | 0.145 |
| 20 | 22.5 | 0.145 |
| 1 | 22.6 | 0.245 |
| 2 | 22.6 | 0.245 |
| 12 | 22.6 | 0.245 |
| 14 | 22.6 | 0.245 |
| 16 | 22.6 | 0.245 |
| 19 | 22.6 | 0.245 |
| 11 | 23.3 | 0.945 |
| Average - grains | 22.355 | |
| ES - grains | 1.5 | |
| Standard Deviation - grains | 0.355633238 | |
| Mean Average Deviation - grains | 0.206554472 |
Name of precision (ammo, optics, shooting, etc) is to have it be the same each time, when precision isn't there, "interesting" things can happen.
Pressure wise, that's really hard to guesstimate as it would depend heavily upon where you are on curve for the average charge.
Depends on what barrel and chamber the ammo was tested / developed in also. Lotta variables to account for to be able to say much of anything useful.
Powder charge variation is bad. Powder charge variation with faster burn rate powder, combined with bullet that is "heavy" for cartridge is even worse.
Internal ballistics - it'll give you a headache, one way or another.
Heres an attempt at distribution by frequency,
done in .2gr buckets
Interesting to note that 22.5±.2grains is 22.3x to 22.7
would account for 10x of the sample units.
Almost suggesting much of the variance is under-charges ,
but there is defintely a significant OVERCHARGE outlier:
Note how 23.3 sits two empty buckets to the right...
(please double check if my math is off)
Note: what shows up in x= "22.7"
is 22.5<X<= to 22.7
done in .2gr buckets
Interesting to note that 22.5±.2grains is 22.3x to 22.7
would account for 10x of the sample units.
Almost suggesting much of the variance is under-charges ,
but there is defintely a significant OVERCHARGE outlier:
Note how 23.3 sits two empty buckets to the right...
(please double check if my math is off)
Note: what shows up in x= "22.7"
is 22.5<X<= to 22.7
Almost suggesting much of the variance is under-charges ,
but there is defintely a significant OVERCHARGE outlier:
Note how 23.3 sits two empty buckets to the right...
Also notice that the 23.3 grain powder charge happens to be randomly paired with the lowest case weight of 96.2 grains.
powder charge
case weight
...
And the over pressure case was the heaviest of all weighed. Probably missing some brass in the flash hole area as well.
Since I'm about to tumble 223 brass I'll mark & weigh a few before and after carbon removal. Doubt it's even 1 full gr for carbon.
Since I'm about to tumble 223 brass I'll mark & weigh a few before and after carbon removal. Doubt it's even 1 full gr for carbon.
The inside of the blown case was brushed and then scrubbed with Q-Tips to remove fouling. I then borescoped the inside of the case to confirm almost all of the fouling was removed. The casehead was then vigoruously scrubbed with a nylon brush.
There were small bits of brass on the bolt when I first pounded it out of the barrel extension/upper receiver.
...
I am intrested to see this but figure carbon is about 0.1 kinda like a piece of wood burnt to ash.
I've shot a lot of the Berger 77 gr OTM bullets, & compared to SMK's, Nosler CC's & 75 Hornadys, the same charges of a given powder with the Berger definitely shows higher pressure signs, hence my loads with that bullet are dropped down a touch.
The grains of powder report in the pulled cases falls pretty close to what might be used with 8208 or AR-Comp with the Berger bullet in handloads.
We'll probably never get a definitive answer, but with both of those powders or something slightly faster,say like VV-133 or 134, it's definitely possible to get enough into the case to get that result, IMO.
MM
The grains of powder report in the pulled cases falls pretty close to what might be used with 8208 or AR-Comp with the Berger bullet in handloads.
We'll probably never get a definitive answer, but with both of those powders or something slightly faster,say like VV-133 or 134, it's definitely possible to get enough into the case to get that result, IMO.
MM
I was looking thru the VV reloading and if I was reading correctly The max 530 is 22.3-22.1 depending on which 77 grain bullet you use. I have always found their charts very conservative . Anyhow that is the hypothesis on powder charge. Case length might put the neck in the throat not releasing the bullet, then when the case expanded in the bolt face just enough brass was withdrawn to shrink case length. My guess having read of brass not trimmed properly.
It was quite disappointing since this is supposed to be "match grade" ammunition and it cost more than a $1.60 a round, not counting shipping costs. Also, since I only pulled-down 20 rounds, the probability is that the spread would be even greater with a larger sample size.
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It's so weird because I've shot probably 4-5 boxes of it and at least 2 were that same lot#. They were so consistent and grouped at .35moa on the regular in my bolt gun. Obviously you have the facts laid out and the powder charge variation sucks, I just don't understand how it could be that the same lot shot so well for me?
Not so weird, many times testing loads at 100 yards the smallest group will have the highest extreme spread.
The spread in fps from 1.5 grains seems like it would be a lot more than the ES from hand loading, and especially so with 5 shot groups but yeah I see your point shooting at 100yds
It might not take “that” much extra powder to really up the pressure. It’s non-linear with charge weight.
This is a very interesting thread and Molon’s notes and documentation are superb.
I find it rather amazing that in all the rounds we fire here, there are not more incidents like this. Factory or not. The QC in modern ammo making is off the charts in a lot of ways. But when it does happen, it is bad bad news.
I’ll be interested to see if the manufacturer responds. They should, even (especially?) in private. If this happened to a round that I manufactured, damn straight I’d want to know. Especially when the info is being so meticulously documented.
Great thread!
Sirhr
I'm really surprised they didn't ask for the round and rest of that box back honestly. I'd want it back to look at it if I made it.
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