Vudoo V-22S Single Shot BR/F-Class Action

[rick137]

rick137,

Thank you for your honest, straight forward response. We are in complete agreement about equipment.

I have shot RFBR for quite sometime and I would like to make two points that may help others understand my initial question.

A rimfire action has much more influence over accuracy than a centerfire action in a rifle build. It has to do with ignition.

Centerfire has that wonderful self contained primer in the middle of the cartridge. Makes ignition very consistent from shot to shot.

Powder in a centerfire case fills, or nearly fills the case. Rimfire cases are less than 10% full.

Rimfire depends on the firing pin striking the case head to cause ignition.

If two rimfire actions are made with the same design and with the same precision, (eg. bolt centered, threads centered, action face square, locking lug contact, trigger hanger properly located, etc. etc.)

The action that delivers the most consistent strike to the cartridge case (location of strike, and depth of strike,

will more often than not be the more accurate . Some action designs make achieving this consistency easier than others.

The other point is rail guns rarely beat bag guns in shooting for score, or even in group matches.

Rail guns have there uses but are not often used in open competition.

TKH

TKH:

Thanks you for a most interesting post. However the etc. etc. in "(eg. bolt centered, threads centered, action face square, locking lug contact, trigger hanger properly located, etc. etc.)" is what my high school English teacher would call deliciously vague. Any further elucidation for my uplift and edification would be most appreciated.

Surprised that railgun support not the ultimate but so be it. What do you mean by bag guns? Mechanical rests with bags at interface of stock and rest? If so, from your remarks it would seem a one-piece mechanical rest, with free recoil?, takes those honors.

From my perspective and neglecting the operational aspects the ideal rest minimizes both the rigid body rotation of the weapon system during recoil and the vibrations in the barrel. Interesting question is whether it is possible to do both minimizations simultaneously or whether there has to a compromise.

If it were not for Covid-19 I would come to Kentucky to watch the match and would be great to talk. I hope someone will make a video of the match.

Good shooting at the match,
Rick

 

[rick137]

Gen 3 Single Shots on the left, Gen 2 Repeaters on the right....

MB

MB:

Way cool. Like the motor ad on TV seeing Vudoo actions in the wild.

Rick

 

[jstiller]

The term rail gun has been brought up a few times. I have built quite a few centerfire rail guns. The whole key to them is perfect recoil and return to battery. I used to use carbide rods for slides and either delrin/teflon or carbide balls to slide in them. Both worked.

If you really think about what BR shooters use in our one-piece rests and how they work, they are railguns. The top platform, in this case it looks like a stock, sits on 2 bottom surfaces on the front and is guided by 2 side surfaces on the front (on the non-bag fronts). That locates it in el and az but doesn't restrict anglular motion, just like the front of a rail gun. The rear sits in a "V", which does the exact same thing as the rail rear, locating it on both az and el. With in essence a 3 point mount, you now have rail gun. The traditional CF rail is more mechanical looking, but both work very much the same. IF our guns don't return to battery like the traditional CF rail gun, we have something wrong in the rest. Just something to ponder.

 

[Scubabubbles]

S

S:

Could you be a bit more quantitative. What was the difference between the old actions, the two unsatisfactory new actions and the satisfactory new action.

Rick, with the older original actions I shot a 2500, several 2450's, and a dozen or so 2400's. With the newer version of the same action the best scores was a few 2300's and most were in the 2100 range. As i said, the same barrel, stock, trigger, rest, ammo etc. I even took the new actions to a tunnel to try and fine tune them. After 2 days in the tunnel I could never get them above a 2300. The latest action was a 3 lug and although it shot somewhat better (2350 range) I just never got comfortable with the feel of the 3 lug. Nothing against it, just wasn't a favorite of mine. My experience has been that with every thing else being equal the action makes a big difference. Hope this helps

 

[tonykharper]

TKH:

Thanks you for a most interesting post. However the etc. etc. in "(eg. bolt centered, threads centered, action face square, locking lug contact, trigger hanger properly located, etc. etc.)" is what my high school English teacher would call deliciously vague. Any further elucidation for my uplift and edification would be most appreciated.

Surprised that railgun support not the ultimate but so be it. What do you mean by bag guns? Mechanical rests with bags at interface of stock and rest? If so, from your remarks it would seem a one-piece mechanical rest, with free recoil?, takes those honors.

From my perspective and neglecting the operational aspects the ideal rest minimizes both the rigid body rotation of the weapon system during recoil and the vibrations in the barrel. Interesting question is whether it is possible to do both minimizations simultaneously or whether there has to a compromise.

If it were not for Covid-19 I would come to Kentucky to watch the match and would be great to talk. I hope someone will make a video of the match.

Good shooting at the match,
Rick

Rick,

I used the deliciously vague language to be brief. To explain all parameters that must be met to create a bench rest action would be of little use. It would be like Mike showing a picture of his CNC program for his CNC mill. A lot of data, but what are you going to do with it?

The intent of the sentence was to indicate both actions were of the same quality, and met manufacturing standards.

Bag guns are rifles shot off sand bags.

Some rimfire games such as ARA, and PSL, allow the use of mechanical rest. These rests can turn a wood stocked rifle into something very near a rail gun.

Short range centerfire bench rest competitions require bags.

Only in rimfire will you see full on railguns competing against bag guns, and wood stocked rifles shot off mechanical rest.

Back 20 years or so ago you would see guys shooting full on rail guns at the Nationals, but no longer, they just can't compete in "for score matches". They do much better at "group" matches. But we don't shoot rimfire group matches these days.

Now getting back to your question. Most ARA and PSL shooters choose to shoot wood stocked rifles off mechanical rest. However,

there are many that shoot off sand bags even on their mechanical rest.

There are very few things set in concrete. You really need to get to some matches and it will become much clearer.

Rick, Covid 19 is going to be with us for a long time. Be careful, and watch yourself, but don't stop living your life because of it.

TKH

 

[rick137]

Rick, with the older original actions I shot a 2500, several 2450's, and a dozen or so 2400's. With the newer version of the same action the best scores was a few 2300's and most were in the 2100 range. As i said, the same barrel, stock, trigger, rest, ammo etc. I even took the new actions to a tunnel to try and fine tune them. After 2 days in the tunnel I could never get them above a 2300. The latest action was a 3 lug and although it shot somewhat better (2350 range) I just never got comfortable with the feel of the 3 lug. Nothing against it, just wasn't a favorite of mine. My experience has been that with every thing else being equal the action makes a big difference. Hope this helps

@Scubabubbles

Definitely. Many thanks.

Rick

 

[Tim7139]

Thanks Mark....just one thing to drill down on as I believe it's really important. I don't consider the "concern" to be "a ton," because most that are posting here and sharing excitement are familiar with who we are and what we've been doing in rimfire. I've read recently that BR has been considered the F1 Racing of shooting, but, if you've spent much time around those cars, it's not hard to realize quickly that the technology isn't nearly as advanced as cars in other types of racing. Of course there are many perspectives, but not everyone considers multiple perspectives as it relates to what are the broader areas of consideration for what we're doing and why.

MB

Not to get off target but, Michael, I have......you might want to stick to guns.

 

[jstiller]

OK guys, I have had lots of questions about my 1 in 10 barrel statement I made. Here is the deal. I have used many barrels brands and styles over the last few years. I have went through lots of barrels to get to my few. The barrel I am looking for is one that will win a championship match at multiple venues and times. It needs to not be ammo sensitive, work on multiple days, work on multiple temps etc. IF you really want that barrel, it is maybe at best a 1 in 10. The next step down is a barrel that will win, but has stipulations on it. Temperature or some environmental requirement and higher ammo sensitivity are the two things that keep a barrel from being that 1 in 10. Maybe 3 or 4 out of ten will meet that. Once again, I am talking about having a barrel that will support the rest of the system to be dominant in ARA competition. I have had guns that can win championships in cold weather that don't shoot hot. I also have a few barrels that KILL with a specific few lots of ammo, but struggle with other "good" ammo. Most of the time, that is about the best you can hope for.

After all of my work, I have pretty much formed a relationship with Dan Muller and to a smaller extent, Shilen. At this point in time, a Muller 8 groove barrel is probably the best bet to get a good shooting gun. For the guy that is not a top 10 kinda guy or shooting other disciplines, that will most likely get you a good shooting gun MOST of the time. That also assumes the guy putting the gun together has good components and knows what he is doing. The other thing I am getting from this thread is delivery time concerns etc. If you want the custom stuff, you are most likely gonna have to wait. I'm not talking about weeks or a few months either. I have a set of parts I gave a guy at least 5 years ago to build me a gun with that I am still waiting on!

I hope Vudoo can put out production guns in the qty needed for his customers. I am also hoping his customers have reasonable expectations, that meet what the company supports, and if so, everyone is happy and moving forward. As before, I am looking forward to this and still hoping some of them move to ARA and IR50 (for Tim's sake).

 

[RAVAGE88]

Not to get off target but, Michael, I have......you might want to stick to guns.

Not at all off-target Dude, wish I could say more about the car stuff, as there are many more layers, but we’ll have to stick to the simple stuff.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

....and IR50 (for Tim's sake).

I’m happy to see I’m not the only one that picks on Tim about this.

MB

 

[rick137]

@Scubabubbles:

Forgot to say thank you for doing the experiment posed in one of my questions. But the hairs on the back of my neck stand-up when you say you used the same ammunition. Does the same ammunition mean ammunition from the same lot? From the same lot with the same rim thickness within your tolerance and the same weight without your tolerance? And with the bullet carefully inspected for deformation? Other criteria perhaps? And after all that there is still possibility of differences in bullet hardness and imbalance. Maybe the differences are large enough to be significant, maybe not. I think the term ammunition roulette is appropriate because of the possible significance of undetermined variables.

Addendum:

In a practical/operational sense, shooting 100 or 500 or 1000 rounds from the same lot, sorted as you wish, perhaps qualify for the same ammunition in a statistical sense.

 

[ccollier]

After all of my work, I have pretty much formed a relationship with Dan Muller and to a smaller extent, Shilen. At this point in time, a Muller 8 groove barrel is probably the best bet to get a good shooting gun.

That is great to hear and music to my ears! Because I'm planning to have a Muller 8 groove installed on my V22s. Fingers crossed!!

 

[Tim7139]

I’m happy to see I’m not the only one that picks on Tim about this.

MB

Hey, Hey, Hey, you don't get to pick on Tim until you lay down a few scores sometime, somewhere.

 

[Tim7139]

Stiller,
Weigh in on another (valid I hope) topic regarding Barrels from your personal perspective. A lot of thinking out there about life expectancy of a properly maintained MI barrel, with some like corrugated 8's seemingly, fairly short.
Assuming no shooter damage, your thoughts on the subject. When might a great one be expected to fall off ?

 

[marks_a18138]

Good luck on wearing a barrel out unless you SUCK at barrel maintenance....lol I have seen 2 bad rimfire barrels after 30k, both barrels were damaged by bad cleaning techniques.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Hey, Hey, Hey, you don't get to pick on Tim until you lay down a few scores sometime, somewhere.

Yessir, I need to figure that part out, but there seems to never be a time that it’s not time to make the doughnuts....for those that remember that commercial.

MB

 

[Tim7139]

Well here is something the class might find interesting. Not entirely consistent with this thread but you decide, if out of place, whomever is responsible, move it....delete it.

Today I got to wrap my hands around a Vudoo repeater, shoot it a bit, take bolt apart etc.
By buddy, an experienced BR guy, ex 30 yr Remington arms guy shoots a bunch of club F class type stuff, all informal and bought a barreled action, 22" I believe, and put it in a hunter type stock with a good hunter type trigger set about a pound, all set up off a bag and bipod.
Well, he came over because he was shooting SK And wanted to try Match and Midas...a couple lots that I had that I would class as solid not great.
With clean barrel we started out with ELEY in mild but switchy wind, probably no more than 3-4 mph.
Gun settled right in in 4-5 shots, shot some 3-5 shot groups that were smallish and generally round and started right in on an IR 50/50 card.
Fist 10 shots, 6 solid X's all tens, finished card with a 247. I shot right through everything with hold off.....wanted to see what it would do in the wind.
The gun shot quite flat for a repeater with a Leu 6.5-20 on it, all misses were a hard 9, gun never did a damn thing unusual, misses were all, pretty much me.
We went back and forth with a couple cards between us, 245-247 range, all double digit X counts
The ELEY fed through mag with a couple hangups, the Midas Functioned flawlessly and shot within a bullet hole and performed equally.

I posted this because even though a non BR setup in a less than ideal rest, etc. All I have seen, anywhere, is pics of groups, reports of 300 yard gong shots, but nothing on an actual BR target.
Now, I have zero idea how representative this may be but......hell.
It was really quite enjoyable.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Well here is something the class might find interesting. Not entirely consistent with this thread but you decide, if out of place, whomever is responsible, move it....delete it.

Today I got to wrap my hands around a Vudoo repeater, shoot it a bit, take bolt apart etc.
By buddy, an experienced BR guy, ex 30 yr Remington arms guy shoots a bunch of club F class type stuff, all informal and bought a barreled action, 22" I believe, and put it in a hunter type stock with a good hunter type trigger set about a pound, all set up off a bag and bipod.
Well, he came over because he was shooting SK And wanted to try Match and Midas...a couple lots that I had that I would class as solid not great.
With clean barrel we started out with ELEY in mild but switchy wind, probably no more than 3-4 mph.
Gun settled right in in 4-5 shots, shot some 3-5 shot groups that were smallish and generally round and started right in on an IR 50/50 card.
Fist 10 shots, 6 solid X's all tens, finished card with a 247. I shot right through everything with hold off.....wanted to see what it would do in the wind.
The gun shot quite flat for a repeater with a Leu 6.5-20 on it, all misses were a hard 9, gun never did a damn thing unusual, misses were all, pretty much me.
We went back and forth with a couple cards between us, 245-247 range, all double digit X counts
The ELEY fed through mag with a couple hangups, the Midas Functioned flawlessly and shot within a bullet hole and performed equally.

I posted this because even though a non BR setup in a less than ideal rest, etc. All I have seen, anywhere, is pics of groups, reports of 300 yard gong shots, but nothing on an actual BR target.
Now, I have zero idea how representative this may be but......hell.
It was really quite enjoyable.

Pretty cool stuff Timothy. If you guys want to shoot more Eley, let me know and I’ll send different followers. The system is designed around Lapua, so the Eley doesn’t feed as well without the Eley followers.

MB

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

Well here is something the class might find interesting. Not entirely consistent with this thread but you decide, if out of place, whomever is responsible, move it....delete it.

Today I got to wrap my hands around a Vudoo repeater, shoot it a bit, take bolt apart etc.
By buddy, an experienced BR guy, ex 30 yr Remington arms guy shoots a bunch of club F class type stuff, all informal and bought a barreled action, 22" I believe, and put it in a hunter type stock with a good hunter type trigger set about a pound, all set up off a bag and bipod.
Well, he came over because he was shooting SK And wanted to try Match and Midas...a couple lots that I had that I would class as solid not great.
With clean barrel we started out with ELEY in mild but switchy wind, probably no more than 3-4 mph.
Gun settled right in in 4-5 shots, shot some 3-5 shot groups that were smallish and generally round and started right in on an IR 50/50 card.
Fist 10 shots, 6 solid X's all tens, finished card with a 247. I shot right through everything with hold off.....wanted to see what it would do in the wind.
The gun shot quite flat for a repeater with a Leu 6.5-20 on it, all misses were a hard 9, gun never did a damn thing unusual, misses were all, pretty much me.
We went back and forth with a couple cards between us, 245-247 range, all double digit X counts
The ELEY fed through mag with a couple hangups, the Midas Functioned flawlessly and shot within a bullet hole and performed equally.

I posted this because even though a non BR setup in a less than ideal rest, etc. All I have seen, anywhere, is pics of groups, reports of 300 yard gong shots, but nothing on an actual BR target.
Now, I have zero idea how representative this may be but......hell.
It was really quite enjoyable.

Tim, check the 6x5 thread under the "current" heading, for some groups folks have shot with various rifles (lots of Vudoo's) and ammo. That's a good thread to read individual posts with targets. Some interesting stuff posted there.

 

[jstiller]

Good luck on wearing a barrel out unless you SUCK at barrel maintenance....lol I have seen 2 bad rimfire barrels after 30k, both barrels were damaged by bad cleaning techniques.

I wouldn't necessarily count on that. I have seen barrels go away as soon as 25k rounds and last out past 100k. The priming compound is very abrasive. You will very soon see a frosted look at 6 o'clock in the barrel from in front of the chamber for about 6 inches. I have seen the complete rifling gone in the bottom after some amount of shooting. Lots of BR guys that shoot a lot will blow 10 to 15K rounds a year.

 

[Tim7139]

Good luck on wearing a barrel out unless you SUCK at barrel maintenance....lol I have seen 2 bad rimfire barrels after 30k, both barrels were damaged by bad cleaning techniques.

You should, perhaps learn a lot more than you think you know about this topic.
Barrels, before ELEY changed their priming were toast in 2-3 cases.
MI barrels, another animal entirely.

 

[Tim7139]

I wouldn't necessarily count on that. I have seen barrels go away as soon as 25k rounds and last out past 100k. The priming compound is very abrasive. You will very soon see a frosted look at 6 o'clock in the barrel from in front of the chamber for about 6 inches. I have seen the complete rifling gone in the bottom after some amount of shooting. Lots of BR guys that shoot a lot will blow 10 to 15K rounds a year.

Ok , my question, if you have thoughts. Regarding only MI or aggressively MI.

 

[Roscoe230]

Ok , my question, if you have thoughts. Regarding only MI or aggressively MI.

When you say MI is your reference to Muller 8gr MI ?

 

[jstiller]

Ok , my question, if you have thoughts. Regarding only MI or aggressively MI.

I don't really have enough data to make a statement about life of different configs of barrels. Btw, I don't consider the 8 groove MI.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Even the action wrenches are friggin’ cool.


Three lug wrenches:

Two lug wrench on top with a couple three lug wrenches:

MB

 

[Roscoe230]

Even the action wrenches are friggin’ cool.


Three lug wrenches:

Two lug wrench on top with a couple three lug wrenches:

MB

Those are nicely machined.

 

[4Certain]

Even the action wrenches are friggin’ cool.


Three lug wrenches:

Two lug wrench on top with a couple three lug wrenches:

MB

Turn us all into Crows looking and wanting the Bright Shiny Things! 4Certain

 

[Candoo]

Damn I have also been wanting to see one of Ivan's rest, love that in the pic. Ivan can you please post some pics of your rest. Thanks...

Damn I have also been wanting to see one of Ivan's rest, love that in the pic. Ivan can you please post some pics of your rest. Thanks...

 

[marks_a18138]

Holy mother of god that thing is sexy!

 

[Tim7139]

I don't really have enough data to make a statement about life of different configs of barrels. Btw, I don't consider the 8 groove MI.

Really, I thought the corrugated 8 was prettY MI. Fair enough.

 

[Tim7139]

Ok , my question, if you have thoughts. Regarding only MI or aggressively MI.

Not any specific. Muller, for instance, makes a couple configurations that are MI....the 4 & 5 groovers are, the Shilen ratchets are somewhat.
In the strictest sense, any time you get away from lands that stand away from the grooves at 90 degrees and flat across the top is closing in on an MI type label, anything with shallow lands is, I guess, there as well.

 

[Hoser]

Good luck on wearing a barrel out unless you SUCK at barrel maintenance....lol I have seen 2 bad rimfire barrels after 30k, both barrels were damaged by bad cleaning techniques.

I have seen numerous barrel at the Olympic Training Center stop holding the X ring at 50 meters as little as 20K rounds.

Looking inside, the top of the barrel was pristine, the bottom 1/3 was toast. Rimfires are strange critters.

 

[Scubabubbles]

@Scubabubbles:

Forgot to say thank you for doing the experiment posed in one of my questions. But the hairs on the back of my neck stand-up when you say you used the same ammunition. Does the same ammunition mean ammunition from the same lot? From the same lot with the same rim thickness within your tolerance and the same weight without your tolerance? And with the bullet carefully inspected for deformation? Other criteria perhaps? And after all that there is still possibility of differences in bullet hardness and imbalance. Maybe the differences are large enough to be significant, maybe not. I think the term ammunition roulette is appropriate because of the possible significance of undetermined variables.

Addendum:

In a practical/operational sense, shooting 100 or 500 or 1000 rounds from the same lot, sorted as you wish, perhaps qualify for the same ammunition in a statistical sense.

Rick, the ammo used in testing was the same lot numbers.....you can't get a good reading using different lot numbers in my opinion. I usually buy a few boxes of different lot numbers and when I find a lot number that will repeat I buy at least one or two cases.

 

[Scubabubbles]

Damn, what a beautiful example of craftsmanship....I would love to own one like it. If there is a waiting list please put me on it. Thanks

 

[Tim7139]

Tim, check the 6x5 thread under the "current" heading, for some groups folks have shot with various rifles (lots of Vudoo's) and ammo. That's a good thread to read individual posts with targets. Some interesting stuff posted there.

Yes it is. Would be even more interesting if more noted groups were close to claims.
my personal pet peev.

 

[Tim7139]

OK folks , getting a little slow so let's move this along.
MB and Stiller, hopefully you as well, it seems a hot topic is barrel tenon diameter and you guys are engineers and action manufacturers.
I would have bet it boiled down to the nod for more metal, smaller tenon.
MB says math doesn't support that .
Mike, in layman's terms does it boil down to diameter and tenon length combined or something else entirely ?
Jerry, you have gone a more traditional BR route. You may have posted somewhere but would you be willing to share some of the thinking about the subject ?

 

[RAVAGE88]

Yep....

MB

 

[marks_a18138]

Oh man I am finally going to get to see the V22S Friday. Going to have to fly to KY to see it! Boys I am going to shoot my first major BR! Bullet Pro 150...Someone has to be last!

 

[4Certain]

Yep....

MB

Love what the CNC milling machines can do. Marvelous piece of equipment. 4Certain!

 

[RAVAGE88]

Love what the CNC milling machines can do. Marvelous piece of equipment. 4Certain!

It's amazing to watch a five axis horizontal that was designed to make engine blocks; the pallet turns completely upside down to lay in a few of the features in the receiver....

MB

 

[Sgeorge]

What rings are in the picture

 

[RAVAGE88]

What rings are in the picture

Kelbly.

MB

 

[10ring1]

Got on the bus today. Sounds like the Edge, shilen 24", Flavio combo is one of the most common orders. That was mine anyway. Haha.

 

[Travelor]

The F-Class target currently approved by the NRA for 50 yards is the A-27. The new rifle with proper ammo should be able to shoot 10's and X's. If the rifle is not capable o this it should no be reported as an F-Class rifle.
.

 

[marks_a18138]

The F-Class target currently approved by the NRA for 50 yards is the A-27. The new rifle with proper ammo should be able to shoot 10's and X's. If the rifle is not capable o this it should no be reported as an F-Class rifle.
. View attachment 7386088

The official Smallbore F-class is the A51 at 50 yards and A33 at 100 yards....By the way I clean the 50 almost every match with my V22 repeater 18" ace barrel.

 

[1813Benny]

F-SBR targets:

For some understanding of the current scores, you can see the results from the 2020 ASSA National Smallbore Rifle Championships - which included F-SBR - at www.americansmallbore.com.

Regards,
ken

 

[marks_a18138]

F-SBR targets:
View attachment 7386176View attachment 7386177View attachment 7386178

For some understanding of the current scores, you can see the results from the 2020 ASSA National Smallbore Rifle Championships - which included F-SBR - at www.americansmallbore.com.

Regards,
ken

That was a tight match, holy crap Ken the scores were close.

 

[1813Benny]

That was a tight match, holy crap Ken the scores were close.

Check out some of the sling scores.....there were matches where a single X made all of the difference.

With top civilian, US Olympians and the USAMU present there was no doubt that the scores would be close. The 3-position phase is today and tomorrow with 3-P team events on Friday.

F-SBR winner received Lapua ammunition, a SEB MINI rest, trophy plaque and gold medal. Cash payout for the entire F-SBR event should be in excess of $1k.

 

[Travelor]

I stand corrected, A-50 or A-51 at 50-yards and A-33 at 100 yards.

 

[Travelor]

Please do not flam me but the F-Class scores were not that impressive. My shooting buddy and I routinely shoot in the high 1580's to low 1590's. Maybe were are just lucky on the "home" range at the Jefferson County Gun Club in Pine Bluff, AR. *Note we are both Masters in F-Class.