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Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?
- Thread starter THEIS
- Start date
Would love to see the PRS paying membership numbers for the last 5 years.
I would be shocked if that is growing as fast as the long range industry in general. It feels like it's many of the same names,traveling, shooting, and winning matches, and the balance is local shooters who aren't paying members of the PRS.
I would be shocked if that is growing as fast as the long range industry in general. It feels like it's many of the same names,traveling, shooting, and winning matches, and the balance is local shooters who aren't paying members of the PRS.
My only reference, local PRS match and AG cup qualifier, 50 of the 79 did not have PRS numbers, and of the remaining 29 most are household names at the big events, and the finale. I would bet a different set of 30 by region as travel would limit these numbers, but 30-50 in each region is not a large contingent.
That said the club matches are growing, shooter count is growing, our club is looking at embracing the new shooters that see this as a hobby.
That said the club matches are growing, shooter count is growing, our club is looking at embracing the new shooters that see this as a hobby.
California Sharpshooter Showdown PRS AG CUP | PractiScore
practiscore.com
I'm surprised NBCSN had a shooting sport shown. It must have been dumbed down enough to be inoffensive. NBC currently runs a "trigger warning" before biathlon.
In 2012, NBCSN had a deal to air 3GN. The Sandy Hook shooting ended that before it started when the cancelled all firearms related programming and picked up Major League Soccer.
I shoot a different game than this, even though I'd be interested in trying it. I shoot CMP/NRA High Power twice monthly over the summer, monthly in the winter and Any/Any Long Range a couple times a year. I also run my club's High Power Program, a monthly 100 yard reduced match. Our biggest problem seems to be getting participation. Less than 1% of our club will shoot it.
Some of the reluctance is cost, some is having to put a score next to their name. I would guess that fees and recorded scores chase off new competitors.
Our local monthly match has exploded in 3 years, going from 40 to shooters to 120-130 with a waiting list. Our match fees are $50-60 per match. Our MD keeps the average target size for a match at around 2.0 - 2.25 MOA. 90 Second stage times. No prize tables until the finale. We're allowed to pick our squads on practiscore so friends can shoot with friends. We're squad spotted and ro'd.
We're affiliated with the PRS for good or bad. But I won't be buying a membership this year and I suspect a majority of our club won't be for various reasons.
I dont think growing matches is about the target size or about stage times. Our MDs CoFs are fun and give a challenge to experienced shooters but it's accessible to new ones. Its a mix of movement (as much as we can on the property) and what has kind of taken over the PRS. But course of fire is a small part of it.
We've been growing up here because of the environment and sense of community we've created. If we have a new shooter that's struggling on a stage we give them wind calls and coach them up a little on the clock. If they run out of time on a stage we let them finish without scoring it.
Growing our matches has been as much about what we do after the last shot has been fired. We go out for burgers, tacos or pizza and beers after the match, doesn't matter if you're new. Come on out with us. We've set up a weekly practice night through the club ownership to shoot watered down courses of fire at your own pace. We have work days to get the range ready after winter and before each match. We invite new members to our events outside of shooting. There's a reason why we've gotten the moniker of the badger army from the states around us. It's not just the MD who has taken ownership over growing our matches up here. It's some of us more senior members who remember when there were no matches at all in WI and had to drive 11 or 12 hours for the closest two day match. We remember shooting up here before the one day Border Wars or PRS Regional series was even a thing in the area.
If you want to grow matches. Give shooters something to be a part of.
We're affiliated with the PRS for good or bad. But I won't be buying a membership this year and I suspect a majority of our club won't be for various reasons.
I dont think growing matches is about the target size or about stage times. Our MDs CoFs are fun and give a challenge to experienced shooters but it's accessible to new ones. Its a mix of movement (as much as we can on the property) and what has kind of taken over the PRS. But course of fire is a small part of it.
We've been growing up here because of the environment and sense of community we've created. If we have a new shooter that's struggling on a stage we give them wind calls and coach them up a little on the clock. If they run out of time on a stage we let them finish without scoring it.
Growing our matches has been as much about what we do after the last shot has been fired. We go out for burgers, tacos or pizza and beers after the match, doesn't matter if you're new. Come on out with us. We've set up a weekly practice night through the club ownership to shoot watered down courses of fire at your own pace. We have work days to get the range ready after winter and before each match. We invite new members to our events outside of shooting. There's a reason why we've gotten the moniker of the badger army from the states around us. It's not just the MD who has taken ownership over growing our matches up here. It's some of us more senior members who remember when there were no matches at all in WI and had to drive 11 or 12 hours for the closest two day match. We remember shooting up here before the one day Border Wars or PRS Regional series was even a thing in the area.
If you want to grow matches. Give shooters something to be a part of.
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Provide a *consistent* match with a good course of fire and people will come. We actually have so many people at our club match (80+ every month, 2 min par times, 2 moa average targets) that some of the top shooters started another monthly match that caters to better shooters with faster par times, smaller targets, etc. Both sell out! There’s already a formula that works. If your match is struggling then you need to contact the MDs that host thriving matches and do what they do.
And high power is cheap relatively speaking. I made high master in XTC with an A2 service rifle in 10 matches. Shot it religiously for several years, won stuff at Perry, including a couple national records. I gave up on high power because the writing was on the wall. NRA moved their match, AMU doesn’t even attend it. CMP and NRA can’t get along. Attendance overall is dwindling, and there is no leadership driving it forward. Our local scene is struggling too, last club match I went to in 2019 had like 16 shooters. None of my friends would buy a coat or an antiquated heavy rifle that is limited to 4.5x optics, or a space gun to shoot a match that has zero other competitors. PRS type matches killed it, and even the AMU admits it. Look how many of the AMU guys now shoot PRS, even if it’s on their own dime. I love high power but I’m not investing my time and money into it anymore.
NRA and CMP would do well to expand their matches to include steel matches. Heck isn’t the finale next year at Raton? If the CMP would break off a piece of their budget and set up a steel match I think people would do it. If your goal is to further the shooting sports, why limit yourself to such a niche discipline like service rifle or air guns?
So haven’t made it completely through everything yet. Lots of good ideas. Don’t know what the answer is. And I’m definitely new to all this. But here are some ideas for the sport.
First as we all know the one thing that would help the most to get people in, is the initial cost. As people have already mentioned. But it is a costly sport. And I don’t think the community should pay the way of the new shooter by providing them the world.
But organizations like NRL/PRS could offer their membership free the first year. That would get more members joining and wanting to jump into the sport. Getting hooked or maybe not. But give them that chance. You know. The drug dealer approach. and yes i know you can shoot the matches without a membership. But the membership will inspire them to come back for more. IMO. Look at all these major mainstream subscriptions. Blank amount of time free then pay after. Most people wouldn’t pay at first. But after getting a taste they want more and are willing to pay.
Same with club matches. Maybe a “this is your first xx number match you get a discount” on your match fee. And I said discount. Not free entry. Or maybe a sponsor pays one new shooters match fee for that match.
my first match was a guardian. But I RO’d another first. So I got free entry. The big thing was watching other people compete in person and knowing I wanted to do it. It wasn’t as “intimidating” after seeing it in person. Then the so called risk free(by not having to pay a match fee) experience hooked me. I couldn’t wait to shoot another one.
we already do a great job from what I’ve seen and heard with helping new shooters with specialized equipment to use during stages. So they can try before they buy. And I really think we should help push that point home. I personally will loan something to someone in a heartbeat(not just shooting related). But I hate to borrow. I feel like i inconvenience the loaner. So I rather buy it. It’s stupid. But it’s what I do. And it cost me more money. So maybe some way sponsors can provide gear for stages. Like hey here is (insert bag name here) bag to be used on this stage if you wish. And that bag stays with that stage that match.
Another thing I see that would help hook newer shooters is coaching. I know some allow it. Some don’t. But a standard rule of shooter with less than xx number matches can receive coaching during the stage if wanted/needed.
It’s a constant argument on what brings happiness. Possessions or experiences But for most people I believe it’s easier to spend your money on something you can hold. Aka gear. It’s a lot harder to drop big dollars on a membership, match fee, travel expenses, ammo and time when you don’t know what to expect. If we could lower the cost for the newer shooter where we can. And increase knowledge it would be a huge thing for the sport. No matter the league.
First as we all know the one thing that would help the most to get people in, is the initial cost. As people have already mentioned. But it is a costly sport. And I don’t think the community should pay the way of the new shooter by providing them the world.
But organizations like NRL/PRS could offer their membership free the first year. That would get more members joining and wanting to jump into the sport. Getting hooked or maybe not. But give them that chance. You know. The drug dealer approach. and yes i know you can shoot the matches without a membership. But the membership will inspire them to come back for more. IMO. Look at all these major mainstream subscriptions. Blank amount of time free then pay after. Most people wouldn’t pay at first. But after getting a taste they want more and are willing to pay.
Same with club matches. Maybe a “this is your first xx number match you get a discount” on your match fee. And I said discount. Not free entry. Or maybe a sponsor pays one new shooters match fee for that match.
my first match was a guardian. But I RO’d another first. So I got free entry. The big thing was watching other people compete in person and knowing I wanted to do it. It wasn’t as “intimidating” after seeing it in person. Then the so called risk free(by not having to pay a match fee) experience hooked me. I couldn’t wait to shoot another one.
we already do a great job from what I’ve seen and heard with helping new shooters with specialized equipment to use during stages. So they can try before they buy. And I really think we should help push that point home. I personally will loan something to someone in a heartbeat(not just shooting related). But I hate to borrow. I feel like i inconvenience the loaner. So I rather buy it. It’s stupid. But it’s what I do. And it cost me more money. So maybe some way sponsors can provide gear for stages. Like hey here is (insert bag name here) bag to be used on this stage if you wish. And that bag stays with that stage that match.
Another thing I see that would help hook newer shooters is coaching. I know some allow it. Some don’t. But a standard rule of shooter with less than xx number matches can receive coaching during the stage if wanted/needed.
It’s a constant argument on what brings happiness. Possessions or experiences But for most people I believe it’s easier to spend your money on something you can hold. Aka gear. It’s a lot harder to drop big dollars on a membership, match fee, travel expenses, ammo and time when you don’t know what to expect. If we could lower the cost for the newer shooter where we can. And increase knowledge it would be a huge thing for the sport. No matter the league.
This new NRL Huntet series is a great idea. The hunting market is huge, it dwarfs the precision market. Things like hunter matches will bring new people to the precision side and everyone is going to benefit. The biggest challenge is getting new people to their first match, it has to be promoted well and not framed like an elitist faction.
What many of you don’t realize is, this is designed as a “don’t make this same mistakes” thread.
They are taking the pros and cons and putting it together as part of a roadmap
There is and will be more competition the PRS created a lot of disgruntled shooters, some with means, others with time, and from there you just need location.
I had several messages since my Podcast about new series starting up, most of them regional, which if you read every account, the best matches might be “affiliated” to a series but they are the local matches.
The local matches have no drama, they are quick, easier to manage and cheaper. They accomplish the same thing over time, meaning yo can aggregate them, finale them, etc, you can do all the same things without the issues. More control over the product, more control over the people, more control over the fun factor.
I even like the idea of running a hard and easy Set of matches...
The small item things that people mention are fine tuning, the target size, if you create divisions you have to Create standards for each, one of the ways you control standards is with size of targets.
It’s been repeated by me often, but missed by many, consistency of the program from the individual matches to the shooters has to be maintained, Clearly the PRS does this wrong, they have no consistency and they dont manage the shooters only track their scores.
The more you identify the better you are prepared when situations arise, the more you try to micro manage by layering on bullshit the harder it gets. You have to look at it in a simple but over reaching way. You have to manage the product as well those competing
The thing is the competition is clearly secondary, that is the missing piece. Only “X” amount out of Y really care about the competition side of things. Sure they want to be “tested“ but they really are not competing in a traditional sense.
This is the modifications people are talking about many are missing, not everyone wants to compete, but competition is currently the easiest outlet, so they do. However if you adjust the competition with this in mind, realizing people want cheap training and to be exposed to new ideas and new shooters, you can create a better product
They are taking the pros and cons and putting it together as part of a roadmap
There is and will be more competition the PRS created a lot of disgruntled shooters, some with means, others with time, and from there you just need location.
I had several messages since my Podcast about new series starting up, most of them regional, which if you read every account, the best matches might be “affiliated” to a series but they are the local matches.
The local matches have no drama, they are quick, easier to manage and cheaper. They accomplish the same thing over time, meaning yo can aggregate them, finale them, etc, you can do all the same things without the issues. More control over the product, more control over the people, more control over the fun factor.
I even like the idea of running a hard and easy Set of matches...
The small item things that people mention are fine tuning, the target size, if you create divisions you have to Create standards for each, one of the ways you control standards is with size of targets.
It’s been repeated by me often, but missed by many, consistency of the program from the individual matches to the shooters has to be maintained, Clearly the PRS does this wrong, they have no consistency and they dont manage the shooters only track their scores.
The more you identify the better you are prepared when situations arise, the more you try to micro manage by layering on bullshit the harder it gets. You have to look at it in a simple but over reaching way. You have to manage the product as well those competing
The thing is the competition is clearly secondary, that is the missing piece. Only “X” amount out of Y really care about the competition side of things. Sure they want to be “tested“ but they really are not competing in a traditional sense.
This is the modifications people are talking about many are missing, not everyone wants to compete, but competition is currently the easiest outlet, so they do. However if you adjust the competition with this in mind, realizing people want cheap training and to be exposed to new ideas and new shooters, you can create a better product
In my area the best matches are already PRS affiliated. There were a couple ‘outlaw’ matches with their own series that started in 2019, but both eventually went with PRS for 2020 because the shooters asked for it. They wanted their scores to count for the regional points race. Format never changed, but attendance got better. Honestly there are so many matches in my area it’s saturated. You’d have to spend a lot of money on a facility to top what we already. Who’s going to do that, and why?
I personally think the NRL hunter series looks awesome. Minimum 6.5mm with a min power factor and weight limit. I’d take it a step further and ban muzzle brakes, make it bare muzzle or suppressor only. Hell limit it to slings and a small bag. I dunno. I think the current open PRS style event, with 22 lb dashers and no restrictions is already done really well by PRS & NRL, and many local match directors. If you want to shake things up hold a different type of match and see what happens. Isn’t that how this all started anyway? Something outside of NRA high power and f class? I don’t see prs or NRL changing, what they are doing works for a lot of people. Id be interested in something different but not a rehashed version of the same thing. That ship has sailed.
I personally think the NRL hunter series looks awesome. Minimum 6.5mm with a min power factor and weight limit. I’d take it a step further and ban muzzle brakes, make it bare muzzle or suppressor only. Hell limit it to slings and a small bag. I dunno. I think the current open PRS style event, with 22 lb dashers and no restrictions is already done really well by PRS & NRL, and many local match directors. If you want to shake things up hold a different type of match and see what happens. Isn’t that how this all started anyway? Something outside of NRA high power and f class? I don’t see prs or NRL changing, what they are doing works for a lot of people. Id be interested in something different but not a rehashed version of the same thing. That ship has sailed.
Ask yourself this,
Why can’t a venue, a match be more than one thing, it’s just the score, what else is the PRS doing that could not be done without them?
If I hosted a match, I would want my scores accepted by both series, its just a number and the format of the event is no different, if the answer is, we gave them a handful of cheap ass prizes, keep them
this is the main problem, let me host a match and forward my score to every group. It’s fucking electronic,
This whole idea if you support me you cant support thee is the problem, they created the drama by refusing to play nice with others
Why can’t a venue, a match be more than one thing, it’s just the score, what else is the PRS doing that could not be done without them?
If I hosted a match, I would want my scores accepted by both series, its just a number and the format of the event is no different, if the answer is, we gave them a handful of cheap ass prizes, keep them
this is the main problem, let me host a match and forward my score to every group. It’s fucking electronic,
This whole idea if you support me you cant support thee is the problem, they created the drama by refusing to play nice with others
I don't disagree with you. Two governing bodies in a pissing match, one driven by .gov to exclude the other. We have a couple of new Navy shooters but no new civilians.
I'm not sure steel would save Service Rifle, still two ruling bodies and equipment limitations. CMP keeps Service Rifle as an excuse to sell Garands. They know that they are being bought and resold at a profit not being bought by shooters.
CMP and NRA used to cooperate. I'd bet that the separation was more political than game driven.
If you can get two governing bodies to have an equivalent score and ranking system that would be great. The problem becomes which one has top billing and which one is "me too" and do you need membership? CMP and NRA never said join to shoot just collected match fees. Every other league seems to have their rules tweaked a little and require membership at some time.
I would like to see more love for one day club level matches. That's your money maker, that's where the money is. We all still buy the same stuff as the top 10%, The MPAs, The ATACRs, ZCOs, Bartlein, Hawk Hill, RRS, and on and on. It's simple math, the 80 percent is your money maker.
It is an absolute pain in the ass to travel for two day matches. It's two days I could be spending with my family. Instead I get to spend it with guys that are there in hopes of making money, or winning something. It's a different crowd than club level matches, even if it's the same guys you shoot with all the time. A majority of shooters/money spenders aren't willing to travel three states away for two days, spending thousands to do the same thing they can at a club match. You are shooting the same stages and distances at both. You aren't taking anything home from the prize table or winning money at either. Might as well travel a reasonable distance, have fun for a day shooting, and go spend time with the family.
Hell, throw in a few T-shirts, hats, or something for club matches. The majority are buying your stuff anyway, make them feel included. "Hey, I'm part of the gang! I shoot Precision Rifle as well!" It's also free advertising. Those guys buddies see them with a "XYZ match, Wyoming" with an MDT, Defiance, Curtis, whatever logo. Out of the thousands I have spent shooting club matches, I have only pictures, some mulligan tokens, and spent brass. People like stuff that says, "Hey, I was there!"
The bottom 90 percent of Shooters that spend the money, and what time they have to get into the sport don't feel included, which is stupid, because they're the ones keeping your lights on buying barrels, components, glass, accessories, etc.
That would be a good start.
It is an absolute pain in the ass to travel for two day matches. It's two days I could be spending with my family. Instead I get to spend it with guys that are there in hopes of making money, or winning something. It's a different crowd than club level matches, even if it's the same guys you shoot with all the time. A majority of shooters/money spenders aren't willing to travel three states away for two days, spending thousands to do the same thing they can at a club match. You are shooting the same stages and distances at both. You aren't taking anything home from the prize table or winning money at either. Might as well travel a reasonable distance, have fun for a day shooting, and go spend time with the family.
Hell, throw in a few T-shirts, hats, or something for club matches. The majority are buying your stuff anyway, make them feel included. "Hey, I'm part of the gang! I shoot Precision Rifle as well!" It's also free advertising. Those guys buddies see them with a "XYZ match, Wyoming" with an MDT, Defiance, Curtis, whatever logo. Out of the thousands I have spent shooting club matches, I have only pictures, some mulligan tokens, and spent brass. People like stuff that says, "Hey, I was there!"
The bottom 90 percent of Shooters that spend the money, and what time they have to get into the sport don't feel included, which is stupid, because they're the ones keeping your lights on buying barrels, components, glass, accessories, etc.
That would be a good start.
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now that folks have mentioned that you don't need an expensive rifle or anything to compete, and how they see posers with all the top tier equipment that can't shoot for schiff, i have to admit i am bit self conscious about it now and wish i had some cheaper stuff to shoot. 
It's the same Shooters shooting their open glass guns without the weights attached, and a Creedmoor barrel screwed on they had sitting on their bench.
My friends I shoot with are headed to NE in April for that hunter match. I was ready to sign up and I realized that I have two match rifles, and dozens of hunting rifles, that will either not be competitive, or meet the rules.
Nobody is dragging around a 16lb rifle for elk or deer.
With Practiscore barely functioning as-is that would be a complete impossibility.
So it sounds like a more modern and robust product that does what PractiScore does, but better, would be an open product niche.
Working on an excel sheet that populates handicap to end of match results.
The hardest part is the actual handicap algorithm. I’ve tried quite a few ways. But so far, it always gives too much of an advantage to the lesser shooter.
For proper handicap, the match winner before handicaps are applied, should still win the match a decent amount of the time. So far, my handicaps have resulted in them losing by a few points each time.
Very small samples that I’ve used. I might need to enlist a statistician at some point.
Hi,
The electronic registration/score tracking system is an easy fix. Shit..in its' most simplistic form it is nothing more than an advanced excel spreadsheet.
Domain to host registration/score tracking system website is cheaper than a box of 6.5CM ammunition.
So in summary....
The shooting organization needs to cater/focus on the club level events while at the same time implementing the organizations SOPS instead of demanding club level events cater to the organization?
Sincerely,
Theis
The electronic registration/score tracking system is an easy fix. Shit..in its' most simplistic form it is nothing more than an advanced excel spreadsheet.
Domain to host registration/score tracking system website is cheaper than a box of 6.5CM ammunition.
So in summary....
The shooting organization needs to cater/focus on the club level events while at the same time implementing the organizations SOPS instead of demanding club level events cater to the organization?
Sincerely,
Theis
The clubs should definitely be the focus, but you need a path,
Local / Club to Regional, with Regionals being close to National than a single event to finish it, like a Finale that is national
There is no reason to really play national level stuff if the regions are supported. The idea you need to drive to fly to qualify is gone, if you are traveling more than 12 hours in a car that needs to be a personal choice, not a requirement.
Focus on the local levels, use those local events to ramp up competitions, region A score higher than region B, they need to step up, then from there, you can crown a winner.
The model already exist, just use it.
Local / Club to Regional, with Regionals being close to National than a single event to finish it, like a Finale that is national
There is no reason to really play national level stuff if the regions are supported. The idea you need to drive to fly to qualify is gone, if you are traveling more than 12 hours in a car that needs to be a personal choice, not a requirement.
Focus on the local levels, use those local events to ramp up competitions, region A score higher than region B, they need to step up, then from there, you can crown a winner.
The model already exist, just use it.
The biggest hurdle:
What can a national organization offer an MD? Like really offer.
The local clubs here, there is no noticeable difference in match attendance that is attributed to say, reporting scores to PRS regional series. The attendance is 100% because of the club itself and the amount of shooters in the area.
Similarly, the average 2 day between both nrl and prs is from 85-105 shooters. Some matches as low as 65/70 or so shooters and some as high as a couple hundred (these are usually very popular stuff like gap grind).
So, as an MD, if I were to put on a 2 day match, what could a National level organization offer me? I can almost guarantee I will get 60-100 people to show up if I take a few months and advertise it.
As it sits right now, MD’s affiliate with one or the other organizations because they “might as well” since they don’t lose any real revenue to the organization and it can only boost attendance slightly.
So, a new organization needs to be different and needs to actually offer something
Here is a simple test of value/what is being offered currently:
Imagine if both PRS and NRL shut their doors tomorrow. How much would the shooting community be affected?
Imagine if both PRS and NRL shut their doors tomorrow. How much would the shooting community be affected?
Big Key ^^^^
What are you doing for them, it's not asses in the seat like they claim, it's not material support, that barely exists, is it Revenue sharing, what does your event do to bring in PRS Members, and do you get a cut of the National Pie?
Is it advertising, anyone can make a social media post and their social media numbers are not very good. They have use numbers that talk about "rounds downrange counted" as metric because their other numbers suck. The influence is there, but not in a measurable way really. The way we count views is not very flattering to them.
The match director is an extension of the series in a lot of ways, at least the way it's run today. They should share in the pie they are doing a lot of the physical labor. The digital stuff should be the incentive, that is where you make your money because you can automate it. You can schedule a list of social media posts ahead of time, and let the computer do the work.
Lots of way to leverage technology to help,
What are you doing for them, it's not asses in the seat like they claim, it's not material support, that barely exists, is it Revenue sharing, what does your event do to bring in PRS Members, and do you get a cut of the National Pie?
Is it advertising, anyone can make a social media post and their social media numbers are not very good. They have use numbers that talk about "rounds downrange counted" as metric because their other numbers suck. The influence is there, but not in a measurable way really. The way we count views is not very flattering to them.
The match director is an extension of the series in a lot of ways, at least the way it's run today. They should share in the pie they are doing a lot of the physical labor. The digital stuff should be the incentive, that is where you make your money because you can automate it. You can schedule a list of social media posts ahead of time, and let the computer do the work.
Lots of way to leverage technology to help,
The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. We are all customers down to the match directors. Why would I let my roofing contractor tell me who I can and cannot have in my home before they throw shingles on?
I keep coming back to the golf model (yeah i know its been beat up). I obviously dont have all the details or nuances worked out but that’s the point of an open discussion. Throw it out and see if it catches on.
the whole series should be a points race. You get points by participating in events. It can be divided into local, regional and national matches each with their specific points values. In order to qualify for the Championship, a shooter has to have competed in a minimum of say 10 matches, with a minimum of them being what is akin to the majors in PGA. Think, SH Cup, Rifles only or any of the other larger events that currently take place. In order for it to be considered, participated in said event you have to finish in the top half of the field, essentially making the cut (This is for the majors). The local stuff is strictly for points.
lets say you need 500 points to qualify for the championship, majors can be worth say 100 points each and the local/club style 1 day matches are a 25 point total and the medium size 1-2 day matches are 50 points each. (These points totals are determined by your placement, obviously 50th place should get as many points as 1st place). You can shoot as many as you want to get to your point total required. i think this would encourage smaller more competitive stuff all over between clubs and various ranges. I’d like to see more team style comps, field matches maybe even a pro am where a sponsored shooter gets paired with a. Non sponsored amateur for fun or charity (similar to the PGA pro and celebrity tournament ). Another thought for all this some kind of team concept. not shooter/spotter team, but like a truly sponsored team (Team GAP, Team Bushnell, etc etc.) where they dont compete against each other but their total performance is what bases their placement and scoring. If 3 of the 4 suck one day, the whole team suffers. I think the ”pro” shooters/teams should be in their own division and they compete strictly for a cash prize. The rest of the field, or “amateurs” compete with each other. The kicker here is it is possible to have sponsored shooters in this field, but the point is separating the people who do this for a living vs the people who work normal jobs and compete for fun. Some criteria would obviously have to be created to figure out what is and is not a ”pro”.
All matches count in some fashion, Guardian, competition dynamics, etc., etc. the point is to get out and compete. If you want to shoot local matches only, that’s fine, but you cant shoot the championship unless you qualify.
as has been stated many times over, all of this is only as good as the people who enforce the rules and enforce them equally. Match directors have complete discretion to run their matches the way they want but if they want their matches to count towards the points total there is a minimum set of guidelines they must follow that is established by the major governing body. Anything else is up to the MD’s and ranges where the matches are conducted. no match anywhere in the country theoretically shouldn’t count.
id love to see more shooter/spotter type matches. Field matches. endurance matches like mammoth. I’d love to see any and all matches include more physically demanding stages, running up stairs, a sprint to the line. the possibilities are endless. But one thing i absolutely believe is that you can only use the gear you are willing to carry. No going back to the car between stages and changing stuff out.
this is very rough in my head. Probably not even realistic. But that’s where im at in all this. The real issue is always the prize tables. This is also an are we need to address in this discussion. I don’t believe any shooter who gets equipment or ammo provided to them should be allowed to pick shit off the table...especially if say team bushnell guy wins a match and a Nightforce scope is top prize..they cant even use that scope so why should they get to grab it? I dont know, lots to be figured out here. The prize table is always a hotbed of drama. None of this is possible without RO’s and good sportsman, MD’s that are passionate about the sport and range owners who are the same.
the whole series should be a points race. You get points by participating in events. It can be divided into local, regional and national matches each with their specific points values. In order to qualify for the Championship, a shooter has to have competed in a minimum of say 10 matches, with a minimum of them being what is akin to the majors in PGA. Think, SH Cup, Rifles only or any of the other larger events that currently take place. In order for it to be considered, participated in said event you have to finish in the top half of the field, essentially making the cut (This is for the majors). The local stuff is strictly for points.
lets say you need 500 points to qualify for the championship, majors can be worth say 100 points each and the local/club style 1 day matches are a 25 point total and the medium size 1-2 day matches are 50 points each. (These points totals are determined by your placement, obviously 50th place should get as many points as 1st place). You can shoot as many as you want to get to your point total required. i think this would encourage smaller more competitive stuff all over between clubs and various ranges. I’d like to see more team style comps, field matches maybe even a pro am where a sponsored shooter gets paired with a. Non sponsored amateur for fun or charity (similar to the PGA pro and celebrity tournament ). Another thought for all this some kind of team concept. not shooter/spotter team, but like a truly sponsored team (Team GAP, Team Bushnell, etc etc.) where they dont compete against each other but their total performance is what bases their placement and scoring. If 3 of the 4 suck one day, the whole team suffers. I think the ”pro” shooters/teams should be in their own division and they compete strictly for a cash prize. The rest of the field, or “amateurs” compete with each other. The kicker here is it is possible to have sponsored shooters in this field, but the point is separating the people who do this for a living vs the people who work normal jobs and compete for fun. Some criteria would obviously have to be created to figure out what is and is not a ”pro”.
All matches count in some fashion, Guardian, competition dynamics, etc., etc. the point is to get out and compete. If you want to shoot local matches only, that’s fine, but you cant shoot the championship unless you qualify.
as has been stated many times over, all of this is only as good as the people who enforce the rules and enforce them equally. Match directors have complete discretion to run their matches the way they want but if they want their matches to count towards the points total there is a minimum set of guidelines they must follow that is established by the major governing body. Anything else is up to the MD’s and ranges where the matches are conducted. no match anywhere in the country theoretically shouldn’t count.
id love to see more shooter/spotter type matches. Field matches. endurance matches like mammoth. I’d love to see any and all matches include more physically demanding stages, running up stairs, a sprint to the line. the possibilities are endless. But one thing i absolutely believe is that you can only use the gear you are willing to carry. No going back to the car between stages and changing stuff out.
this is very rough in my head. Probably not even realistic. But that’s where im at in all this. The real issue is always the prize tables. This is also an are we need to address in this discussion. I don’t believe any shooter who gets equipment or ammo provided to them should be allowed to pick shit off the table...especially if say team bushnell guy wins a match and a Nightforce scope is top prize..they cant even use that scope so why should they get to grab it? I dont know, lots to be figured out here. The prize table is always a hotbed of drama. None of this is possible without RO’s and good sportsman, MD’s that are passionate about the sport and range owners who are the same.
We had this on blast just prior to Scout
We had points for the distance, we had points for stages, we had a big math formula that was used to balance the events held at different locations
We broke it down pretty well and in the end, it still didn't work, part of the discussions turned into the Missouri MOST Series, they took a lot of the discussion and started their own series with it.
At the end of the day, you want simplicity but also you want to recognize things are different. Does the handicap work if I use a .22 instead of a 6.5CM? What happens if I do it on a 600-yard range vs a 1000 yard one, how do scale it so my hits work.
In order to do what people want, and I get what people want, we have 20 years of talking about it, you need control stages. Instead of trying to handicap an entire event, you have to segment it into stages that can be graded.
You want control stages, those set the tone for national recognition outside of an event. So even if you can't make a national event you have a way to score yourself alongside those who attended.
The golf model works, but not in the same way. The reason golf works are consistency from location to location. You are doing something that is consistent and can be counted to finish a task. Our sport is technically backward, we have a number of shots to finish something given to us upfront, vs trying to do it in the least amount of shots. You would have to change everything to 1 shot, 1 point, end of the story.
You can fix it, and it would probably work well too if you change the format a bit. Maybe break stages into something consistent like 3 shot stage, 5 shot stage, 8 shot stage, 10 and 12, etc.
Where you can use an average like that to say, an event shoot 100 rounds and will have X 2 MOA target, Y 1 MOA etc, and your score is based off Z ... but you need the same data tested. You fired 100 rounds the Match was given a Range Score of 50 and you hit 75 so your score is This....
This is where standardizing things helps, if you standard part of the COF, you can grade it.
We had points for the distance, we had points for stages, we had a big math formula that was used to balance the events held at different locations
We broke it down pretty well and in the end, it still didn't work, part of the discussions turned into the Missouri MOST Series, they took a lot of the discussion and started their own series with it.
At the end of the day, you want simplicity but also you want to recognize things are different. Does the handicap work if I use a .22 instead of a 6.5CM? What happens if I do it on a 600-yard range vs a 1000 yard one, how do scale it so my hits work.
In order to do what people want, and I get what people want, we have 20 years of talking about it, you need control stages. Instead of trying to handicap an entire event, you have to segment it into stages that can be graded.
You want control stages, those set the tone for national recognition outside of an event. So even if you can't make a national event you have a way to score yourself alongside those who attended.
The golf model works, but not in the same way. The reason golf works are consistency from location to location. You are doing something that is consistent and can be counted to finish a task. Our sport is technically backward, we have a number of shots to finish something given to us upfront, vs trying to do it in the least amount of shots. You would have to change everything to 1 shot, 1 point, end of the story.
You can fix it, and it would probably work well too if you change the format a bit. Maybe break stages into something consistent like 3 shot stage, 5 shot stage, 8 shot stage, 10 and 12, etc.
Where you can use an average like that to say, an event shoot 100 rounds and will have X 2 MOA target, Y 1 MOA etc, and your score is based off Z ... but you need the same data tested. You fired 100 rounds the Match was given a Range Score of 50 and you hit 75 so your score is This....
This is where standardizing things helps, if you standard part of the COF, you can grade it.
I kept this from the 3GN Precision rifle try,
-Precision Plus Scoring-
Shooters obtain points in 2 ways using this system. Target points (Precision), and Time bonus (Plus). Before anyone freaks out about the time part... relax and read on.
Target Points-
Every Rifle Target is worth 10 points, so if a stage has 10 possible hits the stage is worth a maximum of 100 target points.
Pistol Targets are worth 4 points total, steel is 1 hit and paper requires 2.
Time Points-
Time points are obtained by completing the COF before the par time. The shooters remaining seconds are divided in half and that is their time bonus. Example- Par time is 2:00, shooter completes COF in 1:30. That is 30/2=15 time points.
Time Points Limiter-
There is a time points limiter that does not allow any shooter to ever receive more time bonus points then 25% of their target score. This is to eliminate the ability for the competitor to speed through a stage and obtain a larger number of time points while sacrificing accuracy. Example- The shooter hits only 4 targets (40 points) but completes the COF in 1:00 on a stage with a par time of 2:00. That would be 60/2=30 Time points, but because they only scored 40 Target points the max time bonus they can receive is 10 points. The shooters overall score would be 50 (40 Target / 10 Time)
Why add time? The answer is pretty simple. We need to reward shooters who obtain the same level of accuracy but are able to do it in fast than others. Rather then reducing par times as shooters get better (which only hurts new shooters) we redesigned a scoring system. By scoring accuracy much higher than time and limiting the max number of time bonus points we maintain that this is primarily about accuracy but also reward shooters for being efficient. This system will also make it almost impossible to have ties as we can round use several decimal places.
Some Examples-
Example 1-
Shooter hits 8 targets and completes the COF in 90 seconds on a 120 par time stage. 8 Targets = 80 Target Points, 120-90=30 Seconds x.5 = 15 Time Bonus
Total Score is 95.
Example 2-
Shooter hits 4 targets and completes the COF in 90 seconds on a 120 par time stage. 4 Targets = 40 Target Points, 120-90=30 seconds x.5 = 15 Time Bonus
Because of the Control clause, the max the shooter can receive an on-time bonus is 10 points (40x.25=10)
Total Score is 50.
Time is one way to do it. This too can be a control point for a series to balance the field, by creating a time handicap
-Precision Plus Scoring-
Shooters obtain points in 2 ways using this system. Target points (Precision), and Time bonus (Plus). Before anyone freaks out about the time part... relax and read on.
Target Points-
Every Rifle Target is worth 10 points, so if a stage has 10 possible hits the stage is worth a maximum of 100 target points.
Pistol Targets are worth 4 points total, steel is 1 hit and paper requires 2.
Time Points-
Time points are obtained by completing the COF before the par time. The shooters remaining seconds are divided in half and that is their time bonus. Example- Par time is 2:00, shooter completes COF in 1:30. That is 30/2=15 time points.
Time Points Limiter-
There is a time points limiter that does not allow any shooter to ever receive more time bonus points then 25% of their target score. This is to eliminate the ability for the competitor to speed through a stage and obtain a larger number of time points while sacrificing accuracy. Example- The shooter hits only 4 targets (40 points) but completes the COF in 1:00 on a stage with a par time of 2:00. That would be 60/2=30 Time points, but because they only scored 40 Target points the max time bonus they can receive is 10 points. The shooters overall score would be 50 (40 Target / 10 Time)
Why add time? The answer is pretty simple. We need to reward shooters who obtain the same level of accuracy but are able to do it in fast than others. Rather then reducing par times as shooters get better (which only hurts new shooters) we redesigned a scoring system. By scoring accuracy much higher than time and limiting the max number of time bonus points we maintain that this is primarily about accuracy but also reward shooters for being efficient. This system will also make it almost impossible to have ties as we can round use several decimal places.
Some Examples-
Example 1-
Shooter hits 8 targets and completes the COF in 90 seconds on a 120 par time stage. 8 Targets = 80 Target Points, 120-90=30 Seconds x.5 = 15 Time Bonus
Total Score is 95.
Example 2-
Shooter hits 4 targets and completes the COF in 90 seconds on a 120 par time stage. 4 Targets = 40 Target Points, 120-90=30 seconds x.5 = 15 Time Bonus
Because of the Control clause, the max the shooter can receive an on-time bonus is 10 points (40x.25=10)
Total Score is 50.
Time is one way to do it. This too can be a control point for a series to balance the field, by creating a time handicap
Two great posts in a sea of many but I wanted to add a couple of comments.
@lowlight - With as many people as we get in some of these matches, many with the only experience being range only and the equipment they use, running with sidearms and guns might be a bit of a liability for some. I know we work really hard just to keep the people hiking our hill course muzzle aware. The guys up at Tehama, via Todd Henderson (Henderson Precision) and crew do a great hybrid and have some really good controls for adding the sidearm back into their PRS style matches.
@Cjwise5 - Agree, great points, but I also know as someone in sales, if the pipeline is not kept full and the demand high, atrophy kills and we'll have fewer opportunities to play. We've seen across several shooting disciplines, Silhouette shooting was super popular here in the West and it's almost gone completely.
Whatever it is it would be great to keep the fun as @Cjwise5 suggests, maybe add in more current shooter field skills as @lowlight suggests; not old school offhand but like hunting is evolving, shooting in the bushes where you need to use your tripod under time or whatever.
That's really interesting. Adding a Slope where the MD submits the average distance, effective target MOA, and wind average for the match could also help those wanting to track performance on a national level.
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We used to always have pistols in these matches until someone at K&M shot themselves in the leg on a draw. We never had an incident at Rifles Only, not once.
There are ways to do handguns safely, which makes for a better match too, you just don't draw on the clock, or at least not a way that promotes the speed of it towards success. But if you are afraid of them don't use it.
The scoring can be the same minus the pistol part, why do people always focus on the most minor parts of something vs breaking down what we are really here to talk about. Okay you don't want pistol good for you at this point in the discussion but you dont' even have a scoring system.
There are ways to do handguns safely, which makes for a better match too, you just don't draw on the clock, or at least not a way that promotes the speed of it towards success. But if you are afraid of them don't use it.
The scoring can be the same minus the pistol part, why do people always focus on the most minor parts of something vs breaking down what we are really here to talk about. Okay you don't want pistol good for you at this point in the discussion but you dont' even have a scoring system.
The people that hunt from a truck or a side-by-side do.
When people talk about a "shooting series" where points are accumulated over a season to me that is a turn off from the outset. In my own personal situation I have VERY limited personal time, and the time to compete in a shooting series exceeds my total amount of available personal time. I am sure I am not alone in that. There has to be some accommodation for the shooters that shoot fewer matches, but shoot at a high level, and also the shooters that can only attend a few matches but allow those competitors to have a meaningful match experience.
A Nascar type points race sounds to me like a game for the shiny shirts, and not unwashed masses.
A Nascar type points race sounds to me like a game for the shiny shirts, and not unwashed masses.
We already addressed this...
We said, at least I did, those not wanting to compete, but wanting to participate can be SHADOW Competitors
You shoot, but you manage your own scores, you show up they run the clock, tell you your hits, you walk away. No name on the score sheet,
Shadow competitors are the people that want the experience of competing but no paper trail,
We said, at least I did, those not wanting to compete, but wanting to participate can be SHADOW Competitors
You shoot, but you manage your own scores, you show up they run the clock, tell you your hits, you walk away. No name on the score sheet,
Shadow competitors are the people that want the experience of competing but no paper trail,
Pistol is easy. Just use it as a time crunch.
“you must successfully engage xyz target X amount of times with pistol before moving to your rifle”
No points for pistol. Just impacts. Better you are with a pistol = faster you get to your rifle for your points
“you must successfully engage xyz target X amount of times with pistol before moving to your rifle”
No points for pistol. Just impacts. Better you are with a pistol = faster you get to your rifle for your points
I could dig that. Can we run a full race STI? Lol
Seriously, though, we did a pistol/rifle stage at our practice range that was really cool.
My thoughts so far on this is one of two ways:
You give general outlines that are not too restrictive on the MD such as:
Each match is 8 stages
Each stage is 10 rounds
7 non prone and 1 prone
No more/no less than X shots from a position
Then provide MD’s with a chart that has 3 types of shooting:
Prone/modified prone
Stable positions
Unstable positions (ropes, etc)
And give them target size parameters for ranges at each of those types of stages.
What that does is keep a standard difficulty level and allows for handicaps to be as close to even universally as possible. MD’s could add stages, but for points/submissions, those 8 are official.
Or
You take the winners total impacts vs amount possible and you use that to give a difficulty level to a match.
90%+ = 1
80-90 = 2
70-80 = 3
Etc etc etc. And use that similar to golf for the difficulty level for the handicap system
I have thought about time. I do personally think if shooter A and Shooter B both clean stages under time and Shooter A is consistently faster, A is the better marksman.
There is. But takes time. The current organizations have as a byproduct trained MD’s and shooters what is the norm.
Anything different will not be an easy sell. So it has to be done properly.
This looks awesome.
The gear race made getting into PRS pretty daunting for me; seems like every year they design the stages around a new must-have widget. That, and it was hard to swallow building a 20lb 6mm "racegun" rifle just to be competitive; at least all the barricade clamping widgets seem to have gone away. ✌
This conversation needs to begin with determining common goals then establishing a path to reach them.
When I have organized major system overhauls it has only worked with that approach. More often than not common goals were not able to be agreed upon and then its best to simply not waste time and effort with folks pulling in different directions.
When I have organized major system overhauls it has only worked with that approach. More often than not common goals were not able to be agreed upon and then its best to simply not waste time and effort with folks pulling in different directions.
Honest question here... How many people do you think compete in F-Class, NRA high power, 3-Gun, etc? All were very popular at one time. I could be completely wrong, but I feel like it's a fairly small number compared against the greater hunting and general shooting segments of the industry. Many of those disciplines or organizations/clubs grew quickly just like PRS/NRL, but died out almost just as quickly. I'm not sure there's anything, any changes that could be made to counteract the slow entropy and eventual downsizing of these events.
Sure, there will always be a dedicated group getting together to stroke each other's egos, but the vast majority of Sportsmen and women in the U.S. will choose to hunt, plink on grand-daddy's land, or hold outlaw events for smaller groups of friends.
I'm usually not a pessimist, but the level of drama and shenanigans in the precision rifle industry is pretty awful.
Brings me back to what I said initially, this sport has to be either a passion, or create an emotion, or be your job. Otherwise it's just going to be a thing that average people try out for a time, and then move on.
Sure, there will always be a dedicated group getting together to stroke each other's egos, but the vast majority of Sportsmen and women in the U.S. will choose to hunt, plink on grand-daddy's land, or hold outlaw events for smaller groups of friends.
I'm usually not a pessimist, but the level of drama and shenanigans in the precision rifle industry is pretty awful.
Brings me back to what I said initially, this sport has to be either a passion, or create an emotion, or be your job. Otherwise it's just going to be a thing that average people try out for a time, and then move on.
Look at Archery Events and how many people are there, if you want to copy anything its archery.
Hunting is by far much bigger, we are just small segments dancing around it.
The big F Class matches are huge, 100s of competitors, those usually combine Palma, which is dwindling in participation, F Class is more popular, but on par to Benchrest as it's just Belly Benchrest. Their numbers are stronger too.
We are definitely in a minority, handgun sports, 3GN, etc, are all bigger by a wide margin
Hunting is by far much bigger, we are just small segments dancing around it.
The big F Class matches are huge, 100s of competitors, those usually combine Palma, which is dwindling in participation, F Class is more popular, but on par to Benchrest as it's just Belly Benchrest. Their numbers are stronger too.
We are definitely in a minority, handgun sports, 3GN, etc, are all bigger by a wide margin
