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Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?
- Thread starter THEIS
- Start date
Still, it's a sport and the organization does everything right,
www.usarchery.org
Everything from the site to virtual events to the real world, look at the focus on education, coaches, etc.
This is doing everything humanly possible to help you participate, to the point they have a countdown timer to the next event on the home page. It's well laid out, it's educational, it's inviting, this is how you run an organization.
Nobody is saying you need to be BIG, but how you operate says a lot about you. You can be small, but still operate successfully, vs this nonfunctioning BS we see with the minor participation we get. Consider how bad this is run with a small amount of participation it sees compared to other sports.
USA Archery
USA Archery is the National Governing Body for the Olympic sport of archery, and is the organization recognized by the U.S. Olympic Committee for the purpose of selecting and training men’s and women’s teams to represent the U.S. in the Olympic, Paralympic, and Pan American Games.
www.usarchery.org
Everything from the site to virtual events to the real world, look at the focus on education, coaches, etc.
This is doing everything humanly possible to help you participate, to the point they have a countdown timer to the next event on the home page. It's well laid out, it's educational, it's inviting, this is how you run an organization.
Nobody is saying you need to be BIG, but how you operate says a lot about you. You can be small, but still operate successfully, vs this nonfunctioning BS we see with the minor participation we get. Consider how bad this is run with a small amount of participation it sees compared to other sports.
In regards to the archery comparison... I shot a lot of 3d tournaments back when I was single, mainly within our state organization. We would squad with our buddies etc for the 1st day, then day 2 squads were split up by class for the top shooters from Saturday in a "top flight" arrangement. The top flight was usually the top 5 scores from Saturday grouped in a squad, it really cut down on the pencil whippers. If ya didn't want to shoot for awards and stay with the buds, no problem. These shoots were well supported by various vendors with a prize table, but the swag etc was raffled off. Imagine that, a whole other source of revenue without the whole crybaby shit from top shooters about how "48th place got an AI rifle and I deserve more" drama.
I’d prefer to keep it a passion. When it becomes a job, well it’s just a job.
This has been an interesting read for me as an outsider to the PRS style matches. I come from the f-class and bench rest side of competitions. I have been the match director for many state and regional f-class championships, and believe me, it's growing. The club I used to belong to started a Monday league for f-class that had maybe 15-20 when I started, to having 65-80 people there regularly the last 4 years. Sling shooting is dying, but we have figured out a way to keep some of the old guys going by putting scopes on their rifles.
It will only get better with the new sub-category for gas guns.
I really like the conversation of growing the shooter base. I have dabbled in local matches (PRS and outlaw) and even took 2nd place out of 50ish shooters at one outlaw match, but I’m usually a upper 1/3rd shooter - I have really enjoyed it and learned a great deal about shooting but I am not anywhere close to being a serious competitor because I don’t dedicate the time to practice and compete - I want to take my kids fishing and shi
the one thing that prevents me from doing more matches is availability and predictable schedule. You need an option for someone to “show up” to a match - I like the shadow competitor idea so that I can just roll up to core and shoot a 2 day match if my schedule allows. Having to sign up and register/pay for a match 6 months out, and the day it’s available for registration is pretty discouraging, and a new shooter is not going to drop $1000 on a two day event plus a long road trip to “try something out”
this is why the local club matches are the ticket.
The club match format can be tweaked by those who know better, but I have an idea to bring new people In
have a “short course” where any gear is allowed, and the targets are bigger, say 500 and in with a full ipsc at 500, the rest are 3moa, or “deer vitals” size, “fees” for the
short course are $25 or so, no prizes
shooting should be field shooting positions, no weird contrived stages like “shoot from a swingset”. A round count around 40 required shots but the shooter can shoot a few more, dope and wind calls can be provided with a spotter
another tweak needs to be a weight limit or just force people to shoot off handed. It was frustrating me when I was winning the local tactical division until another guy built a 30lb .308 with all the bells and whistles and was free recoiling every shot and started winning.
I want more movement, but that is really tough for some locations
The production class is kinda silly but it made the industry flex and produce some great rifles at a great price point, so thought should be applied before throwing out that class
bring in gass gunners, lots of guys have 3 gun rifles, the short course could easily accommodate them while pushing them to be better shooters
finally, figure out a way to bring kids into the fold, and to do that we need rifles that fit kids that are semi affordable the best thing I can come up with is an AR 15, but the grip is still troublesome. I am struggling greatly to figure out how to build a bolt gun a kid can shoot comfortably that fits well, (im sure I could call any number of the reputable smiths on the hide and they can come up with a solution for the right price)
a prize table option to reduce heart ache - make it known that some of the prizes are going to a shooter “in need” and MD identify that new shooter who is safe and has a good attitude but is attempting to use a Ruger American rifle and $300 scope, and give that guy the new bolt gun or that certificate for a new rifle, find the young shooter with a budget scope to give the NF, but make it known that some of those prizes are not “won” they are earned,
the one thing that prevents me from doing more matches is availability and predictable schedule. You need an option for someone to “show up” to a match - I like the shadow competitor idea so that I can just roll up to core and shoot a 2 day match if my schedule allows. Having to sign up and register/pay for a match 6 months out, and the day it’s available for registration is pretty discouraging, and a new shooter is not going to drop $1000 on a two day event plus a long road trip to “try something out”
this is why the local club matches are the ticket.
The club match format can be tweaked by those who know better, but I have an idea to bring new people In
have a “short course” where any gear is allowed, and the targets are bigger, say 500 and in with a full ipsc at 500, the rest are 3moa, or “deer vitals” size, “fees” for the
short course are $25 or so, no prizes
shooting should be field shooting positions, no weird contrived stages like “shoot from a swingset”. A round count around 40 required shots but the shooter can shoot a few more, dope and wind calls can be provided with a spotter
another tweak needs to be a weight limit or just force people to shoot off handed. It was frustrating me when I was winning the local tactical division until another guy built a 30lb .308 with all the bells and whistles and was free recoiling every shot and started winning.
I want more movement, but that is really tough for some locations
The production class is kinda silly but it made the industry flex and produce some great rifles at a great price point, so thought should be applied before throwing out that class
bring in gass gunners, lots of guys have 3 gun rifles, the short course could easily accommodate them while pushing them to be better shooters
finally, figure out a way to bring kids into the fold, and to do that we need rifles that fit kids that are semi affordable the best thing I can come up with is an AR 15, but the grip is still troublesome. I am struggling greatly to figure out how to build a bolt gun a kid can shoot comfortably that fits well, (im sure I could call any number of the reputable smiths on the hide and they can come up with a solution for the right price)
a prize table option to reduce heart ache - make it known that some of the prizes are going to a shooter “in need” and MD identify that new shooter who is safe and has a good attitude but is attempting to use a Ruger American rifle and $300 scope, and give that guy the new bolt gun or that certificate for a new rifle, find the young shooter with a budget scope to give the NF, but make it known that some of those prizes are not “won” they are earned,
For kids the 22’s r awesome. Also, the A-10 stock is good as well.
Tactical Stocks | ADJ A-10 Tactical Stock
mcmillanusa.com
sorry to derail thread, back to the regular programming.
I don’t love the PRS, I really hate the flow more than anything. If matches are smaller squads and less people, I am all for it. That’s amongst a few of my complaints. But if anyone is starting a new series a new MD trying to attract shooters - avoid being money hungry and the competitors will thank you.
Every match i shot in NC an all day affair, 2 hours driving each way many hours shooting (aka waiting) then home late. I got it, I like the MDs and I get they need to earn a buck. It’s why we have 90sec stages, more people can be in a squad, more money.
I think just less people or do par times and step off rotating, there’s a few answers to the question in my opinion.
Time plus penalties and gas gun...the PRS just cancelled pro series gas gun... I want tons of targets, time plus, pistols, basically let the 3-gun dudes slap a 25x on their AR and they’re in. 3-gun Nation did that and it was pretty sweet.
Every match i shot in NC an all day affair, 2 hours driving each way many hours shooting (aka waiting) then home late. I got it, I like the MDs and I get they need to earn a buck. It’s why we have 90sec stages, more people can be in a squad, more money.
I think just less people or do par times and step off rotating, there’s a few answers to the question in my opinion.
Time plus penalties and gas gun...the PRS just cancelled pro series gas gun... I want tons of targets, time plus, pistols, basically let the 3-gun dudes slap a 25x on their AR and they’re in. 3-gun Nation did that and it was pretty sweet.
Kids should shoot for free anywhere anytime
As a new/average shooter. I'm looking to shoot some matches this year.
Below is an excerpt from the match breakdown of a PRS event not far from me.
"_ _ _ Rifles welcomes all shooters, especially newcomers to the sport. However, in the past, _ _ _ Rifles matches have been proved to be one of the most challenging matches in the PRS."
Notice the newcomers welcome, however??? It's discouraging. Why would I want to set myself up for failure. I'll be passing on that one.
Contrast that to a local series, pretty sure it's a renegade PRS? This is where I'll pop my precision bolt gun comp cherry!
The first match is a beginner's, 1 day matches, $50 bucks, & 100 rounds.
Welcome to the 2020 Mason Dixon Precision Rifle Series (MDPRS)
Qualifying matches will be open to 40-50 competitors with a match fee of $50 per match.
Recommended equipment:
Rifle capable of 1 MOA or better, with a repeatable zero
Scope that you can easily dial or hold for elevation
100 rounds of quality ammo, 308 or under with a max velocity of 3150 fps
Confirmed dope at longer ranges (preferably up to 700 yards)
Bipod, tripod, shooting bags, back pack, sling, food/snacks, water …. Bring what you have
Go to YouTube and search for Precision Rifle Series (PRS) to see what to expect for the stages
Below is an excerpt from the match breakdown of a PRS event not far from me.
"_ _ _ Rifles welcomes all shooters, especially newcomers to the sport. However, in the past, _ _ _ Rifles matches have been proved to be one of the most challenging matches in the PRS."
Notice the newcomers welcome, however??? It's discouraging. Why would I want to set myself up for failure. I'll be passing on that one.
Contrast that to a local series, pretty sure it's a renegade PRS? This is where I'll pop my precision bolt gun comp cherry!
The first match is a beginner's, 1 day matches, $50 bucks, & 100 rounds.
Welcome to the 2020 Mason Dixon Precision Rifle Series (MDPRS)
Qualifying matches will be open to 40-50 competitors with a match fee of $50 per match.
Recommended equipment:
Rifle capable of 1 MOA or better, with a repeatable zero
Scope that you can easily dial or hold for elevation
100 rounds of quality ammo, 308 or under with a max velocity of 3150 fps
Confirmed dope at longer ranges (preferably up to 700 yards)
Bipod, tripod, shooting bags, back pack, sling, food/snacks, water …. Bring what you have
Go to YouTube and search for Precision Rifle Series (PRS) to see what to expect for the stages
If matches only required just a rifle it still would be hard to get new people into it... but this shit with needing a wheelbarrow full of different bags, plus a tripod and bunch of ARCA stuff in order to be on level footing with other shooters is a recipe for failure IMHO.
As someone who is relatively new to precision rifles and long-range shooting as compared to a lot of guys on here, AND as someone who's been shooting pistols in both IDPA and USPSA for about 15 years (as well as a ton of 3-gun and outlaw/steel matches thrown in), my take on the PRS/NRL kind of shooting is this: there's too much extra shit needed to shoot a damn match!
The only things needed to compete should be a shooter and a gun like IDPA/USPSA or as close to that as possible. 1 rifle with a bipod and 1 bag should be enough.
As someone who is relatively new to precision rifles and long-range shooting as compared to a lot of guys on here, AND as someone who's been shooting pistols in both IDPA and USPSA for about 15 years (as well as a ton of 3-gun and outlaw/steel matches thrown in), my take on the PRS/NRL kind of shooting is this: there's too much extra shit needed to shoot a damn match!
The only things needed to compete should be a shooter and a gun like IDPA/USPSA or as close to that as possible. 1 rifle with a bipod and 1 bag should be enough.
You don't really need much to be competitive. A rifle, good ammo, a kestrel and good practice will get you a long way.
I shot all of a last year with one Schmedium bag and a plate. The plate was used less and less as the year went on. I stopped using my binos about half way through the season because everyone and their brother has them and it takes up too much room behind the line. Used a tripod on one stage last year. My rifle is a little heavy at 20lbs loaded with a bipod. No weight kits. I ran my trigger at just over 1lb all year.
There are things that need to change and I've outline that in a previous post. But the perception of needing certain gear to be competitive is just that, perception, driven by marketing departments. The new MPA weight kit and sides are a perfect example of that.
Much more graduated KYLE type targets so new guys get hits and experienced guys can be challenged.
I brought a new guy to a match, and he got destroyed. Still licking his wounds. Hopefully he comes back
I brought a new guy to a match, and he got destroyed. Still licking his wounds. Hopefully he comes back
“Fun” matches, whether a series or not, should borrow something like the 4D scoring system from barrel racing. Time+points sets the score, divisions (1D, 2D, etc) break down by a set formula like 80 to 100% are 1D, 60-79% are 2D, 35-59% are 3D, 0-34% are 4D. Top 3 in each division are awarded. It wouldn’t be hard to implement for someone hosting their own matches, but PRS and NRL are too invested in their own systems to change anything.
As a new shooter that comes from an archery background I couldn't agree more. One of the biggest problems as I see it is with classes, specifically the lack of a "pro" class. Even at a local match a new or casual shooter is expected to "compete" with the top shooters in the sport if one happens to show up to a local match, just because that new or casual shooter has the same class of weapon as the "pro".
Every year the worlds largest indoor archery tournament has 3-4 thousand shooters and every year more shooters show up. How many amateurs do you think would show up if they had to compete against Reo WIlde or Jesse Broadwater just because they choose to shoot a freestyle rig. They show up to shoot against other amateurs while shooting next to professionals, giving them a chance to succeed as well as something to aspire to. If an amateur busts his ass and improves to the point that he feels he is ready to compete against the big boys he pays the increased entry fee to shoot in the professional class and is eligible to compete for the top prizes.
Now at the local level a tiny little indoor shoot that is not affiliated with a corporation, series, or governing body will still have an option at registration to shoot in the pro or money class, they pay a higher entry fee and compete for the money. Out of the 100 or so shooters that show up maybe only a handful will be registered as pros, they have a good time competing with the handful of people at their skill level, and the rest of the field can have a good time knowing they are not dead money because a few pros showed up to their little tourney.
The barrier to entry in indoor archery is very small, you need a bow, 20 yards, a target, and a 25 cent target face. Stand on the line and shoot 30 or 60 arrows, add up your score and you very quickly find out how your scores stack up. This is a sport that literally almost everyone can do in their basement and they still travel and pay money to shoot in competitions. Precision rifle is quite different, you HAVE TO participate in some type of match to see where you stand, and for beginners to be thrown in the same class as the top shooters is most definitely a deterrent for participation.
So who determines who is a "pro": Easy, the shooter at registration, if they are good enough to compete at the highest level they pay a higher entry fee and compete for the money and top prizes. While the amateurs are happy to compete for a trophy or maybe a free entry to the next competition.
In a sport without paid spectators the participants and sponsors are left footing the bill for the top shooters. The sponsors will have a tendency to keep donating because they see it as an investment or an obligation. The casual and new shooters will grow tired of footing the bill for the "pros" and find other things to do. Great recipe for stagnant growth.
If it were up to me the classes would be:
1. Juniors(should be the primary focus of any shooting sport)
2. Ladies
3. Limited(weight limit)
4. Open
5. Open Pro
I do think Archery is the answer, at least a model
I have been looking at it, their numbers are incredible, it's a decent model to follow
I have been looking at it, their numbers are incredible, it's a decent model to follow
this reminds me of world cup. I have done Archery for over 20 years ,and archery continues to grow by leaps and bounds. Every one shoots in their category.
I agree with nate60x ( which means a perfect score)
We do pretty well at my local range when it comes to making a course of fire that is challenging but also fun for new shooters. Unfortunately due to some of the governing bodies there is a huge push for production class and I think it has just turned the entire concept sour. My open rifle cost me less than certain production rifles. t
There is also no requirement for how many people have to be in production class, so if you are the only production shooter or the only tac shooter you can still walk away with a trophy.
There is also no requirement for how many people have to be in production class, so if you are the only production shooter or the only tac shooter you can still walk away with a trophy.
Hey lowlight.
I occasionally shoot with some folks in SC who run a monthly, alternating team/individual 2 gun match. The awesome thing about it is they have a beginner division. They also run a youth group. The beginners and youth typically have some of the top dudes and dudettes volunteer as mentors. They also get help from others int the squad. Youth can’t shoot pistol, but are squaded for free. It’s great. The top people are still competitive enough to to place in the top 10 in some of the bigger 3 day-2 gun comps like bushnell and mammoth. They are currently expanding beyond 650 yds, but make up for it by putting out moa and below targets and stripping time from the stage. They run a strict rule that if you try and game the system to pull from the beginner prize table, you will be bumped to the open division for the next match. It is a pretty good working system for them. I rarely see people not come back. Great people-great time! Besides... aren’t we all competing against ourselves?
I occasionally shoot with some folks in SC who run a monthly, alternating team/individual 2 gun match. The awesome thing about it is they have a beginner division. They also run a youth group. The beginners and youth typically have some of the top dudes and dudettes volunteer as mentors. They also get help from others int the squad. Youth can’t shoot pistol, but are squaded for free. It’s great. The top people are still competitive enough to to place in the top 10 in some of the bigger 3 day-2 gun comps like bushnell and mammoth. They are currently expanding beyond 650 yds, but make up for it by putting out moa and below targets and stripping time from the stage. They run a strict rule that if you try and game the system to pull from the beginner prize table, you will be bumped to the open division for the next match. It is a pretty good working system for them. I rarely see people not come back. Great people-great time! Besides... aren’t we all competing against ourselves?
I gotta few suggestions that are very simple: you shoot the fucking COF as it's written, in the spirit it is written. If you are to shoot with the front of your rifle off the rung of a ladder, you shoot the fucker as it's written. That would imply no bag on the front, and no tripod supporting the rear. On some of these barricades, when you allow a front bag and a rear support, it is sometimes more stable than shooting the fucking stage prone. This kind of activity mitigates the reasoning behind the various obstacles MD's go through the trouble of setting up at their matches.
Am I guilty of using all of this shit on stages? Absolutely. All the while, commenting on the sheer absurdity of it all too. Don't get me wrong, the bags have been a glorious development for precision rifle shooters; I know that they have been employed in the field for those who are using rifles in defense of our country and communities. There is a bag to solve nearly every problem. However, when you're bringing a fucking sofa out to the match, it demonstrates how quickly the stupidity has gone off the rails.
And yes, this might also mean that targets may need to get larger, that is understandable. I have been at matches where we're shooting at a sliver of steel an inch wide because you're able to use everything but the kitchen sink with which to hit the fucker. How about you just make a target that is sized appropriately for the COF? Because of the gear race, targets are becoming fucking tiny and that is also dumb. Just manage the gear.
Lastly, if you're a shooter and the RO does not call "impact," that's the end of it. No trying to steamroll the RO or throwing a fucking temper tantrum because you and your "buddies" saw the "hit". It is unconscionable that some people act this way. I have read and heard that some people have "a lot to lose." That's the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever witnessed outside of COVID 19 being a deadly virus. Is there a lot on the line for some of these shooters? No, not at all. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to shoot these matches. This shit is for fun, it is not life and death. You don't like your score or how some volunteer is scoring your shit, keep it moving, and don't let the door hit you on the fucking ass whilst you exit.
I could probably drone on and on but you guys know what I'm saying. I've shot and RO'ed matches for over a decade now, and have grown tired of some of the crybaby bullshit. Don't get me wrong, I'm a cool motherfucker, but I can quickly get hyper tyrannical if I get any of that "I hit that third shot" bullshit. You might have hit it, but it didn't get called and you're not getting the point.
This is a problem only for those who need extrinsic rewards to feel they accomplished something.
In my experience, people like that have the following characteristics
- An inflated idea of their skills
- No humility to accept reality
- No drive to get better, they want the bar lowered to where they do well
BTW, what most of you call "pros" are people who are the complete opposite of the ones I describe above. They took their ass kicking as a motivation to do better, not as an excuse to quit or ask for an easier shooting problem. Most of them aren't "pros" since most of them don't make their living in the shooting industry.
IMHO
Short and simple , as of today I have yet to know of a pro shorter that makes his/her living as a shooter. In the PRS or Bench rest world . For example Erik Cortina . A lot of people know him as a bench rest shooter ,that is with the USA team . He himself says that he has to work because shooting doesn’t pay him enough to live with . There is F-Class John as well ,he has to work and sale stuff .
please correct me if I am wrong
Short and simple , as of today I have yet to know of a pro shorter that makes his/her living as a shooter. In the PRS or Bench rest world . For example Erik Cortina . A lot of people know him as a bench rest shooter ,that is with the USA team . He himself says that he has to work because shooting doesn’t pay him enough to live with . There is F-Class John as well ,he has to work and sale stuff .
please correct me if I am wrong
I see the problem of "working" in the industry as the extension added to people because they are "sponsored" for lack of better word.
Now you start talking to companies, most of the time it's all free, but you are now working in the industry helping design something ... a few are paid and paid well. They have a couple of solid $25k sponsors out there, but not enough to live off of in 2021.
The PRO tag is a joke, they get mad because they see someone like me, "get stuff" to review or write about, or video, and think, why me, or why him, or why can't I, he did... but I actually built a business around this and it happened over 19 years, while working another job. All pros are, people ballsy enough without a resume to ask for something in exchange for nothing but repeating their name at a match. if you want to shoot a bunch of matches, the more names you can repeat, the bigger pro you are.
SH was a Hobby, until a few short year later it wasn't, like 12 years is when I was finally able to stand behind the site as it's own income. Prior I worked my real job, and then 3 weeks on, 1 week off at Rifles Only for 7 years as a "side job" in the gun industry while operating SH in-between hours.
Nobody see the real work, only the public side and many say, if he can, I can, and so they start trying. In the early years there was more Vortex talkers than sponsors, because Vortex was cheap enough everyone had them and put the name on their shirts, permissions be damned. You see less shirts today because they made it a joke previously by making shit up.
But this is a journey, not a jaunt, nobody is making money without building something else around them.
Now you start talking to companies, most of the time it's all free, but you are now working in the industry helping design something ... a few are paid and paid well. They have a couple of solid $25k sponsors out there, but not enough to live off of in 2021.
The PRO tag is a joke, they get mad because they see someone like me, "get stuff" to review or write about, or video, and think, why me, or why him, or why can't I, he did... but I actually built a business around this and it happened over 19 years, while working another job. All pros are, people ballsy enough without a resume to ask for something in exchange for nothing but repeating their name at a match. if you want to shoot a bunch of matches, the more names you can repeat, the bigger pro you are.
SH was a Hobby, until a few short year later it wasn't, like 12 years is when I was finally able to stand behind the site as it's own income. Prior I worked my real job, and then 3 weeks on, 1 week off at Rifles Only for 7 years as a "side job" in the gun industry while operating SH in-between hours.
Nobody see the real work, only the public side and many say, if he can, I can, and so they start trying. In the early years there was more Vortex talkers than sponsors, because Vortex was cheap enough everyone had them and put the name on their shirts, permissions be damned. You see less shirts today because they made it a joke previously by making shit up.
But this is a journey, not a jaunt, nobody is making money without building something else around them.
This x1000
The last two weeks, I’ve only been home 2 days. The rest was spent at RO, then real job, back to RO, then with Hoplite for a couple days working on product, then to another range to set up a match for this weekend. Mix in 30 phone calls or lunch meetings.
No one sees that shit. They just see something about a single “no bag” stage on upcoming match, call to complain, and then complain to other people. Meanwhile you basically just worked a second full time job that doesn’t pay full time pay.
If your theory was correct, there wouldn’t be people flocking to participate in amateur bowling, golf, pool, etc etc that all have handicap systems.
Only 20% or less of participants in a game or sport have the drive and/or ability to be at the top.
If you don’t cater to the other 80% first, you’ll fail attempting to cater to the 20%.
This is a common issue seen with overachieving managers in any industry.
They fail as leaders because they expect every employee to have the same drive and/or talent as they do.
The successful leaders figure out how to use the other 80% to be the most productive.
They fail as leaders because they expect every employee to have the same drive and/or talent as they do.
The successful leaders figure out how to use the other 80% to be the most productive.
The secret that was lost, and why I used to bitch more about competitors, was:
We focused on the bottom 20% a heck of lot more than the top 20%
After I walked away and the PRS popped up, all the focus went to their friends, the Top guys were pimped because they were revenue drivers in a lot of way. They were making minor celebrities vs focusing on what made it fun(er)
yes shooting an event is fun, no doubt, you are hanging around with like minded folks, so in the moment, everything is fun. The question is, was it still fun after you went home and analyzed what took place. How were you treated, where was the focus, who got the attention. Then people reflect and either step up, or step away, the step away crowd is bigger
The best "step up folks" usually have a plan, and that plan is normally about exploiting some aspect of the game. if it works, they stick around, if it doesn't they leave.
My mindset with the bottom 20% has always felt they were your bigger drivers because you can demonstrate real improvement with them. Their curve is visible, the other guys are just bouncing podium wins between friends, especially at certain locations.
If you can create a returning competitor out of a bottom 20% shooter, you have a thicker foundation. The Top 20% has a goal that usually involves money, if it doesn't appear they are gone.
We focused on the bottom 20% a heck of lot more than the top 20%
After I walked away and the PRS popped up, all the focus went to their friends, the Top guys were pimped because they were revenue drivers in a lot of way. They were making minor celebrities vs focusing on what made it fun(er)
yes shooting an event is fun, no doubt, you are hanging around with like minded folks, so in the moment, everything is fun. The question is, was it still fun after you went home and analyzed what took place. How were you treated, where was the focus, who got the attention. Then people reflect and either step up, or step away, the step away crowd is bigger
The best "step up folks" usually have a plan, and that plan is normally about exploiting some aspect of the game. if it works, they stick around, if it doesn't they leave.
My mindset with the bottom 20% has always felt they were your bigger drivers because you can demonstrate real improvement with them. Their curve is visible, the other guys are just bouncing podium wins between friends, especially at certain locations.
If you can create a returning competitor out of a bottom 20% shooter, you have a thicker foundation. The Top 20% has a goal that usually involves money, if it doesn't appear they are gone.
I don't know how many people "flock" to those sports with handicapping. I don't know how you know either.
I don't have the resources, and probably not the ability, to get to the top of USPSA. Just like most. Despite that, my motivation to compete and improve is still there. And I see that in a lot of others I know so I'm not exceptional in that regard.
Even though USPSA has shooter classifications (a handicapping of sorts), there's nothing to win with them in club matches and precious little in level 2 and 3 matches. And yet attendance is through the roof even with covid
I have a theory.
I think that what attract shooters to a shooting sport are:
- A mature rulebook that provides for a uniform match experience (notice I didn't say uniform stages) regardless of where you go.
- A baseline level of officiating expertise facilitated with a uniform training, certification, and recertification standard.
- Equipment divisions that provide a real differentiator between firearms that would not be competitive bunched together
- The fact that everyone, from GM to noob, shoots the same stages in a given match with no "women's tee".
These are very good, described well, if you are paying attention, none of this is happening today, at all.
The thing with individuals who want to dabble, this sport has been marketing it all wrong. By the PRS including numbers to equipment rules, they stopped the average Joe from showing up. You basically telegraphed, this is the opposite of your buddies golf weekend.
You have to invest, ($5k entry fee) you have to prepare (can't show up blind), you have to over practice to even place mid pack, bumbling with a firearm will get you in trouble, in more ways than one.
The golfer can decide, I just want to get away, I don't care as long as I see a minor improvement, if the club good the rest doesn't matter. Wander on the field, play, wander to the bar.
Golf for the individual is a completely different mindset, in PR here to "play" you better want to "compete" because very few people have the mindset to just show up alongside people actually competing. Players vs Competitors
You have Hardcore Competitors alongside casual shooters, which is great on paper, Bob gets to play alongside Tiger Woods, but do you really think Bob is enjoying himself alongside a guy in it for the money when he knows, he's just there for the entertainment ? Maybe the first time he is squadded at a Tiger Woods event, but by the time he is exposed to a few more and the competition becomes a bit cutthroat, that fun is gone. Those celebrities crushes don't last long. Only takes one, Hey RO that was a Hit, and when the casual guys see you fighting for a few minor points, the disappointment sets in
How would I know? You can literally google the participation in leagues like APA (amateur pool players association). A local franchise owner can easily make six figure income.
Last I checked. There were 250k active members and you have to pay the membership fee to even be a member.
I think the main problem with the whole PRS/NRL thing is just how expensive it is. Unless one is good enough to where it's a pretty safe bet that they might be coming home with some prize money or will be picking up some cool gadgets off the prize table, there's almost no reason to bother.
I know this is a "go be poor somewhere else" forum lol, but that attitude certainly doesn't grow the sport.
Shooting a regional/club-level 1-day match costs about triple the average cost of a random USPSA match... and a legit PRS/NRL 2-day match within driving distance with a $250 entry fee is what? ~$600 for the weekend with hotel/gas/food/incidentals (not even counting ~200rds at $1.00-2.00 a trigger pull)...
It's dumb really. NRL markets NRL22 partially under the guise of being for new shooters and family/youth friendly, a "not-for-profit organization dedicated to the growth and education of long range precision"... then pros and YouTube gun guys show up from two states over and stretch out behind their $5k Vudoos or whatever trying to snag a win, while 11y/o Joey with his trusty 10/22 and Walmart scope gets his "education" ...
I know this is a "go be poor somewhere else" forum lol, but that attitude certainly doesn't grow the sport.
Shooting a regional/club-level 1-day match costs about triple the average cost of a random USPSA match... and a legit PRS/NRL 2-day match within driving distance with a $250 entry fee is what? ~$600 for the weekend with hotel/gas/food/incidentals (not even counting ~200rds at $1.00-2.00 a trigger pull)...
It's dumb really. NRL markets NRL22 partially under the guise of being for new shooters and family/youth friendly, a "not-for-profit organization dedicated to the growth and education of long range precision"... then pros and YouTube gun guys show up from two states over and stretch out behind their $5k Vudoos or whatever trying to snag a win, while 11y/o Joey with his trusty 10/22 and Walmart scope gets his "education" ...
+1I think the main problem with the whole PRS/NRL thing is just how expensive it is. Unless one is good enough to where it's a pretty safe bet that they might be coming home with some prize money or will be picking up some cool gadgets off the prize table, there's almost no reason to bother.
I know this is a "go be poor somewhere else" forum lol, but that attitude certainly doesn't grow the sport.
Shooting a regional/club-level 1-day match costs about triple the average cost of a random USPSA match... and a legit PRS/NRL 2-day match within driving distance with a $250 entry fee is what? ~$600 for the weekend with hotel/gas/food/incidentals (not even counting ~200rds at $1.00-2.00 a trigger pull)...
It's dumb really. NRL markets NRL22 partially under the guise of being for new shooters and family/youth friendly, a "not-for-profit organization dedicated to the growth and education of long range precision"... then pros and YouTube gun guys show up from two states over and stretch out behind their $5k Vudoos or whatever trying to snag a win, while 11y/o Joey with his trusty 10/22 and Walmart scope gets his "education" ...
ive shot several local matches and I’m still unsure why the prs match thst occupied the long distance range only cost 3x the amount the 3gun match cost thst used the long distance range and 5 of the bays, and the 3 gun match had more and bigger steel.
i still will shoot a local match when able, it’s just a little odd when the same club has way different costs for the same facilities
I think the main problem with the whole PRS/NRL thing is just how expensive it is. Unless one is good enough to where it's a pretty safe bet that they might be coming home with some prize money or will be picking up some cool gadgets off the prize table, there's almost no reason to bother.
I know this is a "go be poor somewhere else" forum lol, but that attitude certainly doesn't grow the sport.
Shooting a regional/club-level 1-day match costs about triple the average cost of a random USPSA match... and a legit PRS/NRL 2-day match within driving distance with a $250 entry fee is what? ~$600 for the weekend with hotel/gas/food/incidentals (not even counting ~200rds at $1.00-2.00 a trigger pull)...
It's dumb really. NRL markets NRL22 partially under the guise of being for new shooters and family/youth friendly, a "not-for-profit organization dedicated to the growth and education of long range precision"... then pros and YouTube gun guys show up from two states over and stretch out behind their $5k Vudoos or whatever trying to snag a win, while 11y/o Joey with his trusty 10/22 and Walmart scope gets his "education" ...
Do you want a sport or do you want a participation trophy?
People who feed off the challenge of competition will find a way to get as good as they can within their means.
People who need a feel good trinket will be disappointed and will go away. And good riddance. All they seem to do is bitch about not winning anything.
It's also a red herring to compare a 2 day PRS regional match with a "random USPSA match". Why don't you add up the costs of a 1 or 2 day level 2 or level 3 USPSA match?
Your last paragraph is what is dumb. So people who are good should not ever shoot a local match for fear or hurting little Johnny's feelings? Maybe I should go home and not shoot when too much Carry Optics heat shows up at the monthly USPSA club match.
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^^^ Man, your reading comprehension isn’t working too well this morning, why don’t you reread what I posted, because you missed the point on pretty much everything lol.
I’m not even going to bother going through it again, but I wasn’t talking about participation trophies, or going where you’re going with it, that’s for sure... smh
I’m not even going to bother going through it again, but I wasn’t talking about participation trophies, or going where you’re going with it, that’s for sure... smh
I understood your point. It's very clear. ^
If you can't win something, why spend the money to compete. It's right there in black and white
I started running some NRL22 matches this year and decided that, for this year at least, all youth (under 17) will shoot my matches for free. I’m already getting a good turnout. In addition, I do my best to add stages that are both accessible by neophytes and challenging to seasoned shooters.
As I go, I try to respond to potential issues I see with courses of fire and adapt and adjust. It is very important to me that people find these matches to be both fun and challenging and that they enjoy coming. Otherwise there’s no good reason to continue running them, as I’m not doing this for me.
It maybe helps my perspective that I shoot these matches, so I get personal feedback on stages. Honestly, shooting a match that I’m running means that I usually score poorly, relatively, as it’s pretty hard to clear my mind for a stage. But again, I’m not doing this for me.
As I go, I try to respond to potential issues I see with courses of fire and adapt and adjust. It is very important to me that people find these matches to be both fun and challenging and that they enjoy coming. Otherwise there’s no good reason to continue running them, as I’m not doing this for me.
It maybe helps my perspective that I shoot these matches, so I get personal feedback on stages. Honestly, shooting a match that I’m running means that I usually score poorly, relatively, as it’s pretty hard to clear my mind for a stage. But again, I’m not doing this for me.
As someone looking from the outside in it looks like the same thing is happening to shooting sports that happened to drag racing, stock cars, etc. When Joe Normal can't compete with a rifle he would field for everyday home defense or deer hunting then i think you might be getting off base. Just like the hot rodders that were cannibalizing cars for fun and racing against other tinkerers morphed into 3000 hp track-only monsters that required fat wallets, trailers, and sponsorships i think the shooting sports have gone away from their base. I have taken a look at a few competitions here and there but it seems to me it is just more fun and productive to go small scale and grab 3-4 friends and shoot out at fouled bore(local long distance range), spot for each other, have a good time, and maybe get a little better that way.
Maybe a "sport" isn't the best way to add shooters is the point i was getting at. If your focus is solely on the sport, then i am barking up the wrong tree. The outlaw/small scale events definitely grab my attention quicker than any big organized function where people get lost in the shuffle.
Maybe a "sport" isn't the best way to add shooters is the point i was getting at. If your focus is solely on the sport, then i am barking up the wrong tree. The outlaw/small scale events definitely grab my attention quicker than any big organized function where people get lost in the shuffle.
I read some of this and nothing is different than what I hear in my circle of shooters.
The Border War Rifle Series was started 5 years ago. In the north central our average match fee is 50 bucks for a 80-100 round one day match. It has been great to have a regional series a step above a club series. It limits matches so shooters tend to cross state lines to shoot and expand out of there normal fish bowl.
2 day cost.... My NRL 2 day has had match fee reductions from $225 to $200 to $150 for the 2021 Vortex Rampage. (I still have 10 unfilled spots)
Why?? increased efficiency in match planning and execusion, start up cost have been covered. This brings my cost down, I pass it on to the shooters. With no loss of services. We even have a cash purse for division leaders and a new add this year. Miss a target and hit the hidden tannerite... win $100 bill. Favors the guys who miss, we will pay on the first 10 hit.
Today's market is saturated, it is not a 12-15 match national series anymore. Evolve, attract new customers, and compete for market share, It works better than bully tactics.
The Border War Rifle Series was started 5 years ago. In the north central our average match fee is 50 bucks for a 80-100 round one day match. It has been great to have a regional series a step above a club series. It limits matches so shooters tend to cross state lines to shoot and expand out of there normal fish bowl.
2 day cost.... My NRL 2 day has had match fee reductions from $225 to $200 to $150 for the 2021 Vortex Rampage. (I still have 10 unfilled spots)
Why?? increased efficiency in match planning and execusion, start up cost have been covered. This brings my cost down, I pass it on to the shooters. With no loss of services. We even have a cash purse for division leaders and a new add this year. Miss a target and hit the hidden tannerite... win $100 bill. Favors the guys who miss, we will pay on the first 10 hit.
Today's market is saturated, it is not a 12-15 match national series anymore. Evolve, attract new customers, and compete for market share, It works better than bully tactics.
I agree. However the industry has made amazing profits the last year(s). They should give back more to the people who buy all this $$$ gear. More contribution will create more buzz. More interest and more, well more. Someone above mentioned the golf industry. Well that’s super successful, even though that was poo pooed on a few posts later. The industry should sponsee more and growth will naturally happen. Media will follow the masses and the $$ and the growth will be there. Just my $0.02.
I have done a lot of competition in different worlds other than guns and I think the best thing we could do is follow what the Archery 3d (ASA) does (Doesn't mean you need every shoot to have multiple trophies for each division). I would start with a Amateur, Semi - Pro, and Pro class for all 3 classes (Male, Female, Kids). All shoots are shot, but you could have Top Amateur, Top Semi Pro, Top Pro. You get promoted/demoted based on how you do. Then when it's nationals or national shoots, you have more people wanting to show up and shoot as they do not think they are going against the best of the best. Win a national shoot, automatically promoted. Then you go to a class build the class by setting a standard. Top 20% in Pro, Next 40% Semi, last 40% amateur. Winning will keep the fire of the sport going! Just my 2 cents.
I'm in total agreement with your thought process on this. I hail from a small town in Eastern Kentucky. There is nothing special here. Well, the birthplace of KFC is a few miles away, but that's another story. Every year, in this small town, there are a record number of ASA shooters that roll into town to compete. I think there was something like 2,000 shooters last year, and there will be that many or more here in about a month when the shoot takes place again. It's been this way for the past 10 years and it gets bigger every single year and it continues to grow. The biggest thing I've seen over the past few years is the involvement and massive participation of kids from elementary all the way to high school and college. It's the biggest draw of ASA shooters anywhere in the country each and every year, both adults and kids. When registering, each competitor chooses which class they wish to shoot in. Classes go from Pro all the way down to Novice. The rules are clearly shown in black and white what you can and can't use during the competition by way of equipment. It's this way all over the country, no matter what ASA event you take part it, you are restricted to the same speeds, stabilizer lengths, sights etc.
With that being said, and a friend of mine and myself have discussed this. One thing I have always thought was a problem with PRS matches was the equipment part of PRS. Now before you say, "well, you can go buy all those gadgets and stuff to". Yeah, I could, but hear me out.
Like ASA, the PRS shoots are held all over the country. However, they are all not held to a standard like ASA or other archery events. Let's say two shooters are in a tight race for a top spot on the PRS leader board in the SE region. Shooter A may be able to travel to a venue that will allow him to use all kinds of equipment on stages. He can use tripods, gamer plates, front and rear bags and other items during his stage. Meanwhile, Shooter B is not able to travel that weekend, but needs to shoot a match to stay in contention. So he travels to a match closer to him, only to find out that the match is ONLY allowing shooters to use a bipod and one bag on every stage. There are matches like that because I shoot in one a few times a year. At the end of the day, Shooter A finishes the match 10-15 points better than Shooter B because Shooter B was restricted to gear, while Shooter A used a multitude of equipment allowing him an advantage. But at the same time, the same two shooters would go back and forth on who won by only a couple points when using the same gear. Don't know if that makes sense, but I've tried to explain it best I could. What I'm getting at is how is that uniform and on a level playing field?
Unlike competition archery, were shooters are restricted to a strict amount of gear from the Pro Class all the way to the Novice class, PRS shooters can use everything but the kitchen sink at one event, while another event, held on the same weekend in the same region is, at times, restricted to just a handful of shooting aids. That to me is what I don't agree with. There needs to be uniformity across the board on what can and can't be used at every match. If I'm not mistaken, NRL is like this, but I could be wrong. In the above scenario, if Shooter A and Shooter B was in the Shooter of the Year event like ASA has, their placement in the shoot would be who the better shot was on that day because they were both restricted to the same exact standards equipment wise in the class they shot. That is competition IMO!!!!
And reverting back to some people saying anyone can buy the gadgets and use them. Yes, they could, but not everyone has money falling out of their ass to be able to purchase all that stuff. Then there are others that say, "well, shooters will let you borrow the stuff". Yes, they will. There is a lot of very nice, generous folks I've met at PRS matches. But a person shouldn't have to borrow stuff to compete. Shooting competitions should be about shooting, with all shooters starting on a level playing field. It shouldn't be a damn gear race to see who has the most shooting aids.
I know I got long winded, but it's just a discussion a friend and I had the other day. I will continue to shoot the restricted gear matches, because I wanna improve my shooting, not my ability to use gadgets.
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It just really keeps people excited. Then you only pay out Pro Class, but also, pro class has to pay a higher fee and pay a "Pro" registration to the entity they are affiliated with. Again, I have seen this model work. I would have a Field and Unlimited class to start with 3 or four different ability divisions. It can build from there as needed.
That is something I could see. Open should be open to use whatever you want to use, than have other classes for the guys who wanna shoot with using only a set amount of allowed gear. For instance, bipod and rear bag. It makes for more classes and more to keep up with, yeah, but at the same time, I think it would get more people involved. But I've been wrong before.
Yep. The creation of the AG set apart all the household names that people talked about earlier in this post and put them competing against each other on, what I think, the most even playing field of all the classes. I see no problem with those matches. To my knowledge, they are held at one specific location, and people who wanna try and make the big show can use what they wish or what the match allows. It's not like my other example when a match in Alabama, Georgia or somewhere else in a regional shoot will allow anything within reason while another regional match in another state, or the same state for that matter will only allow a certain things, when at the end of the day, all the shooters are vying for the same spots.
Nobody wants to follow that / this lead
the AG Cup only has a passing interest despite the forced attention. The rockstars of the sport are being treated like rockstars and that only works when there is a secondary reason to be called a rockstar, none of that exists
The AG Cup is just a system to feed the better competitors to keep them around longer otherwise many would realize pretty fast, this isn't paying out or happening like other sports.
The pipeline is missing... so there is not vertical feed, instead, they use Beyond Meat for the Steak like substance in hopes it'll catch fire
the AG Cup only has a passing interest despite the forced attention. The rockstars of the sport are being treated like rockstars and that only works when there is a secondary reason to be called a rockstar, none of that exists
The AG Cup is just a system to feed the better competitors to keep them around longer otherwise many would realize pretty fast, this isn't paying out or happening like other sports.
The pipeline is missing... so there is not vertical feed, instead, they use Beyond Meat for the Steak like substance in hopes it'll catch fire
As said 100 times so far,
For the sport to grow it has to be affordable and fun.
the less fun the more affordable it has to be
The more fun the less affordable it can be
no matter how hung-ho you are about shooting if you go to a matched and go 15 for 65, it’s not fun
for the guys who say “them go get better” (which we should all strive for), maybe the shooter has limited time to shoot or practice but has ample supplies of money to spend.
those are the guys who make series and sports work not the 10 big shots. Bigshots can come and go but the hordes of people who just want to shoot and have a challenging yet enjoyable time pay the bills.
hunting has been facing the same challenges over the past several decades.
they have finally come around to understand that hunting is supposed to be enjoyable at its core, and modern weapons want to be used.
If changes did not occur they were not only purposely limiting their customer base and possible growth/revenue but they have historically chosen the side that is shrinking in market share.
For the sport to grow it has to be affordable and fun.
the less fun the more affordable it has to be
The more fun the less affordable it can be
no matter how hung-ho you are about shooting if you go to a matched and go 15 for 65, it’s not fun
for the guys who say “them go get better” (which we should all strive for), maybe the shooter has limited time to shoot or practice but has ample supplies of money to spend.
those are the guys who make series and sports work not the 10 big shots. Bigshots can come and go but the hordes of people who just want to shoot and have a challenging yet enjoyable time pay the bills.
hunting has been facing the same challenges over the past several decades.
they have finally come around to understand that hunting is supposed to be enjoyable at its core, and modern weapons want to be used.
If changes did not occur they were not only purposely limiting their customer base and possible growth/revenue but they have historically chosen the side that is shrinking in market share.
